Making combat epic

[Ferretz]

So, the characters in the campaign I'm running are starting to get pretty powerful, and I'm considering ways of making some of the combat more epic. Of course, there are certainly ways of doing this already, and some of the foes that can be encountered will pretty much wipe the floor with the fellowship.

But one of the classic scenes is the heroes fighting off a horde of lesser foes, like goblins or low-ranking orcs. In rules as written, they a character can only attack once in a round (unless he is a Noldor with that one reward spear), making such fights take a very long time to play out.

Multiple attacks has been mentioned before, and even dual wielding, but arguments can be made both for and against those. For instance, allowing multiple attacks would make that Noldor spear not so unique anymore, and dual-wielding might feel "un-Tolkien-ish" to many.

But how about this: make groups of lesser enemies stronger? For instance, make a group of three goblins count as one stronger foe. It would need some special rules, but this allows the Loremaster to control what foes that can be attacked more of in the same round, and it lets combat feel more epic as it allows more goblins on the field.

Just some brain-storming (and feel free to analyze and take apart what I'm writing, of course )

To make a single creature into a more abstract group of several creatures, follow these steps:
1. Increase stats by the following:
a) 2 creatures: +1 attribute level, +1 success dice, +50% Endurance, ignores 1 wound
b) 3-5 creatures: +2 attribute level, +2 success dice, +100% Endurance, ignores 2 wounds
c) 6-10 creatures: +3 attribute level, +3 success dice, +200% endurance, ignores 3 wounds
(groups can not be larger than 10 creatures, and maximum attribute level of the original creature should be no higher than 5).

So a group of 5 goblin archers would be Attribute Level 4, shoot with their Bows of Horn with 4 success dice, have 16 Endurance and ignore two wounds before being taken out on the 3rd Wound.


Thoughts? Any different ideas on handling large numers of lesser enemies in TOR?

-E.

[Hermes Serpent]

I think that a much easier way is to use some form of Mook rule.

Call one individual creature 5 or 10, describe it as such i.e. you see a group of 5 orcs while using one figure/counter.
The "uber-orc" takes 5 wounds/being reduced to zero 5 times (or just up the Endurance and for every x points narrate one orc drops. So if the hero does 28 damage narrate that as two (14 point) orcs drop.)

There's probably no need to add extra special effects or extra attribute levels unless you feel extra nasty.
However Hate points will be the issue here and I'd up those to match the number of creatures represented by the token and remove one or two each time a creature is dropped.

By not giving the "uber-ord" extra attacks but allow for overkill by teh hero that might fix some/most of the potential issues.

[Havinor]

A thought I had (and this was just a simple one) is that an experienced fighter could choose to split his/her weapon skill, providing they have that skill at rank 4 or higher and providing each attack is at atleast rank 2. Multiple attacks must be against multiple foes, so you can't multi-attack the same target.

e.g. At rank 4, the character can choose to make 2 attacks at rank 2 each. At rank 5, the character can choose to have 2 attacks, one at rank 2 and the other at rank 3. At rank 6, the character can choose 2 attacks at rank 3 each, or 3 attacks at rank 2.

This allows players to dispatch a lot of weaker targets quickly, but means that when they are fighting a more serious enemy, they can't shower the target with attacks.

[Ferretz]

I think that a group of creatures should make formidable foe. Maybe add also (in my idea above) add 2 Hate for each group "tier". So a group of 3-5 goblins would have 3 Hate, making them less likely to run away (they're Craven, after all).
The idea here is not to slow down combat with more die rolls or have it take more rounds to complete.

My revised idea is not as follows:

A group of 2 enemies add 1 Attribute Level, +50% Endurance, +2 Hate and rolls one more success die. They also ignore one Wound.
A group of 3-5 enemies add 2 Attribute Levels, 100% Endurance, +4 Hate and rolls two more success dice. They ignore two Wounds and gain Savage Assault if they do not already have it.
A group of 6-10 enemies add 3 Attribute Levels, 200% Endurance, +6 Hate and rolle three more success dice. They ignore three Wounds and gain Savage Assault and Great Size if they do not already have them.

This lets the Loremaster combine enemies into a single foe, speeding up combat and letting the players feel extra epic and heroic.

E.

[Glorelendil]

As a player I don't personally like rules that group adversaries into on stat block (it even sort of rubs me the wrong way when it's, say, a swarm of rats.) Somehow it's one step too abstract, and I lose the sense that it's my character doing something, and more that I'm just rolling dice. Which for me would negate the fun of feeling "epic". But, again, that's just me.

I think one main reason this is a challenge in TOR is that as characters progress their offense scales much faster than their defense. So swarms of weak opponents are going to hit you at pretty much the same rate, doing pretty much the same damage, as they did when you were just leaving home for the first time. Something like adding Valour to Parry and Protection would go a long way to addressing this, but would have all kinds of other unintended consequences.

[Falenthal]

A group of 2 enemies add 1 Attribute Level, +50% Endurance, +2 Hate and rolls one more success die. They also ignore one Wound.
A group of 3-5 enemies add 2 Attribute Levels, 100% Endurance, +4 Hate and rolls two more success dice. They ignore two Wounds and gain Savage Assault if they do not already have it.
A group of 6-10 enemies add 3 Attribute Levels, 200% Endurance, +6 Hate and rolle three more success dice. They ignore three Wounds and gain Savage Assault and Great Size if they do not already have them.

It would require a mathematic brain far greater than mine to give a good opinion on this. But, nonetheless, I'll give one :

I don't see why 2 enemies might be a group. 2 is a couple, 3 is a family. (4 is a mess, by the way...). I'd make those tiers, even if just for imaginative purpouses, 3-5 / 6-8 / 9-10. That's an unimportant note, but there it is.

As Glorelendil said, the ability to Parry from the heroes does not increase as much as their ability to hit and to inflict damage. Therefore, I'd be careful with the additional dice to the creature's attacks: tops I'd say none extra for the first tier, 1 for the second, 2 for the third.

Adding Savage Assault is a great idea. Try it around, so that they doesn't come up too deadly.

[Glorelendil]

Oh FFS! I just submitted a long post and my browser redirected to my coffeeshop's WiFi screen. Grrrrrr.....

Ok, see if I can reconstruct that...

First, the way I might do an epic battle is to have the heroes defend a chokepoint against endless enemies (who don't have bows).
- Determine that N heroes and M mooks can fit abreast.
- Let spear-wielding combatants form a second rank and attack from defensive stance, but immune to melee attack themselves.
- Each time a mook dies, roll on a table to see what replaces it (and roll for the 2nd rank, too, if they have any spearmen).
- Heroes who wish to change places in the front rank must both give up their turn to do so.
- Count arrows!

The goal could be to hold out a certain number of rounds until help arrives. (If this idea interests you I could write a simulator that predicts how long your heroes would last. I would need your heroes relevant stats.)


Part 2 was an alternate idea for epic battles. Instead of letting heroes make multiple attacks, have adversaries make fewer attacks. The end result is the same. Maybe each round each mook rolls a die to see if it can even attack. Failure indicates some combination of too intimidated, and unable to find an opening in the chaos and crush. E.g., roll a Success die and if it's equal to or less than attribute level, the mook can attack. Snaga Trackers would attack 1/3 turns, Orc soldiers would attack half the time, and Orc guards would attack 2/3 of the time.

[Ferretz]

A group of 2 enemies add 1 Attribute Level, +50% Endurance, +2 Hate and rolls one more success die. They also ignore one Wound.
A group of 3-5 enemies add 2 Attribute Levels, 100% Endurance, +4 Hate and rolls two more success dice. They ignore two Wounds and gain Savage Assault if they do not already have it.
A group of 6-10 enemies add 3 Attribute Levels, 200% Endurance, +6 Hate and rolle three more success dice. They ignore three Wounds and gain Savage Assault and Great Size if they do not already have them.

It would require a mathematic brain far greater than mine to give a good opinion on this. But, nonetheless, I'll give one :

I don't see why 2 enemies might be a group. 2 is a couple, 3 is a family. (4 is a mess, by the way...). I'd make those tiers, even if just for imaginative purpouses, 3-5 / 6-8 / 9-10. That's an unimportant note, but there it is.

As Glorelendil said, the ability to Parry from the heroes does not increase as much as their ability to hit and to inflict damage. Therefore, I'd be careful with the additional dice to the creature's attacks: tops I'd say none extra for the first tier, 1 for the second, 2 for the third.

Adding Savage Assault is a great idea. Try it around, so that they doesn't come up too deadly.

Well, the reasoning behind this is not only to make a single enemy a bit tougher, but also letting the characters handle larger number of foes. So I agree that 2 enemies might not be a "group" per se, but this allows one characters to defeat, say, two goblins in one round without breaking up the rules by allowing several attacks and such.

I also added a rule that says that for each Wound that a group ignores (1 for two creatures, 2 for 3-5 and 3 for 6-10) one of the extra success dice is removed. One ignored Wound doesn't neccessarily mean that one enemy in the group is defeated, as it is more abstract than that, but Wounding the group will weaken and demoralize it.

I''ll also change the naming of each "tier" to "Pair" (2), "Gang" (3-5) and "Horde" (6-10) (although the word "Horde" suggests larger groups.. any suggestions to an alternative?)

E.

[Ferretz]

Ok, I've discussed it with some of my players and here is a modified take on the grouped enemies-thing I'm working on.

A single enemy is modified as follows:
Gang (3-10): Endurance x3, Hate +2, (new Special Ability) Group
Band (11-20): Endurance x6, Hate +4, Group, Savage Assault
Horde (21-30): Endurance x9, Hate +6, Group, Savage Assault, Strike Fear

The new Special Ability, "Group" works as follows: The enemy modifies their stats as above, adding new Special Abilities as needed. In addition, the enemy may now spend 1 Hate to increase the number of success dice rolled for one attack by one, and spend one Hate to ignore one Wound.

If the group is out of Hate, and takes a Wound, it is destroyed (scattered, fleeing etc), unless it is a group of trolls or other enemy with Great Size. In that case, you're in trouble, or maybe the GM shouldn't use the Group rules for them.

It will need testing, but I feel this is quick and easy rule that doesn't interfere with the main rules as written.

E.

[Falenthal]

It looks quick, effective and easy!
I don't know about the exact numbers, this will need playtesting to adjust properly, but the concept is brilliant.
Remember to keep us updated with your experience!