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So somewhere else, someone asked me about using traits to get an advancement point on a Preliminary roll:

Elfcrusher wrote:Rules question: when rolling preliminary dice, if you want to invoke a trait for the AP does it have to be invoked on the preliminary roll itself, or could you invoke a trait when using the bonus dice and retroactively get the AP. (Might be a good question for the C7 forums)

To which I replied:

zedturtle wrote:I'm very tempted to say no, because the AP would belong to the Vocation category and should represent (in very vague terms) some sort of exceptional instance of that skill category. In other words, getting an AP for rolling Battle is about seeing the opportunities of the battlefield, whereas the roll of a particular bonus die is about the execution of that strategy component. Being Bold or Reckless in your attack does not make your assessment of the high ground or the choke points any more insightful, it just might make your execution a bit more successful.

Of course, it might be worth discussing further over there.

And now we're here... what do folks think?

Am I right? Or is my House Munchkin* right?

— • — • — • — • —

* I kid, of course.

Personally, I'd go with when you make the preliminary roll. That's how I've run it in my games. You could obviously get an additional AP as part of using a common skill later on (when a bonus die is used) but that would just be to do with the action/task in question and not related to the preliminary roll result in my opinion.

Why should it be a problem to invoke the Trait during the Preliminary roll to get the Lore/Insight/Battle AP?

Or do you mean that you'd like to "save" that great or extraordinary success and apply it later to another skill and, thus, to another skill group you have are more interested in?

Falenthal wrote:Why should it be a problem to invoke the Trait during the Preliminary roll to get the Lore/Insight/Battle AP?

Or do you mean that you'd like to "save" that great or extraordinary success and apply it later to another skill and, thus, to another skill group you have are more interested in?

The second one, I imagine. Or to feel like there's no Trait that would apply to Lore/Insight/Battle but would instead apply to Travel/Persuade/Awe, etc.

zedturtle wrote:Being Bold or Reckless in your attack...

... And remember, you can't invoke traits on anything other than Common Skills.

Rich H wrote:

zedturtle wrote:Being Bold or Reckless in your attack...

... And remember, you can't invoke traits on anything other than Common Skills.

Yeah, I guess I should have said Awe there instead.

Here's the scenario I imagine:

1) I roll a Success on the Battle check.
2) I've already got one AP, so I need to invoke a trait if I want an AP.
3) Looking at my traits I've got Vengeful, Tall, Boating, Minstrelsy, and Troll-lore (hypothetically). I can't really think of anything good that would explain why I was successful on my roll in this situation. At least, not that feels like good storytelling as opposed to just AP-whoring.
4) During the fight my companion suffers a Wound. Well, I'm Vengeful, right? So I narrate that my attack carries extra ferocity because I am avenging my companion, which in game terms means that it has an extra die.

So the die is being attached to the attack roll, but the mechanical source of the die is the Battle roll, and the narrative source is my Trait. I'm invoking the trait to retroactively get the AP on the Battle roll. Which also means it doesn't matter whether or not my attack hits or if I roll any Tengwars; that's not what the AP is for. So it's my Vengeful trait that gives me the extra dice, thus the invocation on the Battle roll.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: To flip things around a little, perhaps when making the battle roll I could have said, "Ok, I'll invoke Vengeful because I hate orcs." But it seems to me my proposal is a much better storytelling device.

I think I'll kick you out of the table for being too smart.

I don't think this falls into the realm of the RAW, but I'd allow it for storytelling reasons. The same as we all change some rules ad hoc when it feels more interesting to break the rules than to follow them.

I mean it's really just delaying the denouement of the invocation. "I know what the trait invocation is, but I'm going to wait until the thick of the battle to spring it on you."

The reasoning is sound to me, and based on story first so I'd allow it. Also, because I'm a sucker for players taking the narrative, and it doesn't really break the game.