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So this is interesting, here are some of the details I've noticed about the new version just resent today:

Dwarven-Smithing is much more difficult now (the Craft roll is the same, but if you want to spend XP to gain Craftsmanship points, it's 3 XP to 1 point, and instead of gaining temporary Shadow for points, you have to gain permanent shadow!).

One Undertaking was significantly changed (Study the Stonework of Beinharn) - it's still very cool, but less useful. I think it's balanced out by the fact that normally a trip to the Grey Mountains could be dangerous, but since it's done as an Undertaking during the Fellowship Phase, the dangers and journey can be hand waved.

The Venomed Quality is far less powerful (before, it was like the adversary "Poison" ability, now it just causes Weariness). It's probably more balanced now.

Finally I'll add one more opinion... I might start a thread in the House Rules section. The Enchanted Quality "Dwarf-wrought" isn't nearly powerful enough. Considering that it is an Enchanted Quality and how rare or difficult such a thing is to come by, the Quality isn't as good as the Beorning basic Reward "Noble Armor".

Noble Armor provides a fixed +3 Tolerance, while this Enchanted "Dwarf-wrought" only provides +1 - +3 depending on the NPC... If I were running a game I would definitely add another ability to that Quality.

Any ideas on how to improve Dwarf-wrought so that it is worthy of being an Enchanted Quality? Or do you think it is good as is?

I already pointed out in the other thread that, in my opinion, the Grey Mountains Dwarf virtue "Dark for Dark Business" (page 105) is undepowered, especially if compared to The Hound of the Woodmens and Brother to Bears of the Beornings.
Then again, maybe I'm missing something

For the Dwarf-wrought Enchanted Quality: Gain Tolerance equal to your Valour.

Great idea Falenthal. Probably overpowered, but I like how elegant it is. Maybe it could still be a range, like C7 suggests, but the minimum goes up. So the range would be +1 - +6 from the beginning, but the minimum would be Half your Valour score rounded down? Not sure I like that better, but it would be nice for the LM to be able to say, "You're encountering Galadriel, who really doesn't care about a fancy piece of Dwarven armor...so the bonus is only a small #".

Part of the problem, though, comes back to the fact that Beornings are just OP. Noble Armor, and Honeycakes...too good.

I'd caution against trying to balance specific elements of the rules with each other (eg, virtues in one culture with virtues in another) as I think it's fairly obvious that these aren't always directly meant to balance with each other but with the entirety of the cultures. For instance, those Beorning virtues do look overpowered in isolation but I think they are balanced by the other elements of the Beorning culture - eg, low armour and low Wits. I think Francesco and the guys deliberately designed TOR to not be mathematically balanced in every respect but to be balanced in more subtle ways.

I agree Rich. However, Dwarf-wrought isn't cultural but an Enchanted Quality.

If it was a regular Reward for a Dwarven culture, I'd think it was perfect.

But as an Enchanted Quality, it is weak, in my opinion of course. I think it should either have another element (some other, perhaps a "roll feat die twice" for some kind of Encounter skill), OR the quality should be slightly improved (a fixed +2 or +3 to Tolerance with all Men, Dwarves, Elves, or something like that).

Rich H wrote:I'd caution against trying to balance specific elements of the rules with each other (eg, virtues in one culture with virtues in another) as I think it's fairly obvious that these aren't always directly meant to balance with each other but with the entirety of the cultures. For instance, those Beorning virtues do look overpowered in isolation but I think they are balanced by the other elements of the Beorning culture - eg, low armour and low Wits. I think Francesco and the guys deliberately designed TOR to not be mathematically balanced in every respect but to be balanced in more subtle ways.

I agree.
Then again, the Dark for Dark Business got a very narrow usefulness.
And we know that there are things of narrow usefulness that see almost no use (I'm looking at you, Spear of King Bladorthin).

My reactions to the updates... Well, lets see.

1) Dwarven Crafting: In regards to permanent shadow... I am inclined to believe permanent shadow is very harsh, for the reward in Craft Points it provides, given a dwarf's already low Heart. As far as the exp to points conversion goes, it is steep, but then again, can always get more exp, its no issue. Driven was harsh before, with no undertakings in-between, but now that it is years end only, that means you skip even more, and to a dwarf... Well, its gonna end in more permanent points. The gamble is the 1 point somewhere, if you get a Gandalf... But no matter what you do, you cannot up the Gandalf chance, of course. And the Driven condition seems to suggest you have to take it at the start, because if you roll a Gandalf on your first roll and you arent driven... Im not sure what happens. Maybe you waste it? So, on one hand, it rewards you for risk, but on the other, you are encouraged to stretch this out as long as you can to get the Gandalf while possibly getting more perma-shadow.

Which means, based on how it seems, you'll have gotten at least 2 permashadow(1 to become Driven, 1 because you're gonna overload with shadow since you cant do Heal Corruption, unless you are exceptionally lucky) for this 1 item with 1 enchanted quality, which you can never do again. Then there's the TN reduction thing: True, you do gain even more shadow on the failures with Craft, but... Since you are required to have 4 Craft to even take this Undertaking, your average roll is exactly 20, and you could always spend Hope, so the whole material gathering thing and the other Driven bonus dont seem to do a whole lot. But, who knows, there are bad rolls for everyone.

Probable result of this Undertaking in our group is, people will wait until they have very high Craft, so they dont need to spend Exp or Shadow, and have highest chance to roll 6s, and then just... Wait until the complete it by rolls. Maybe with exp. I really, really doubt someone will use the Permanent Shadow for just a chance to modify their weapon by 1.

2) I am actually really happy with the change to Inspecting the Carvings, since it was essentially a copy of the 'Study with a Craftsman' Undertaking. More social dice are always welcome, especially how this was phrased.

3) Commissioning a Smith - Fair change. It didnt sound powerful to me until I realized that it essentially makes you roll 7 dice, which you can never do normally... Though its effectively the same thing as raising weapon skill, it lets you reroll that 1 and maybe get that 6 you wanted so... Yeah. Maybe not amazing for beginning characters, but for ones who already have maximized their weapon skill? Its pretty great. Alternatively, if your Valor is low but Weapon skill is high, its a cheaper way to increase it.

4) Venomed: No questions here, it was just clarified to do what its meant to, and it seems neater this way. Still cursed though, so not sure how much use it'll see in player hands but Adversaries? Yep!

5) As far the the Grey Mountains Awareness Virtue goes... Well, it is not the strongest, to be sure, but this is Awareness, its one of the worst rolls to fail. Cant really compare cultures to one another, different balances. I -think- the reason they wouldnt make it a flat bonus is because it would double-dip with the Stiff Neck bonus, which is already a flat bonus to Awareness...

6) Dwarven Enchanted Quality is... Well, I think it's decent. Maybe the concern was people stacking it with other things, like the Beorning Armor, but I thin I am inclined to agree with Blubbo; Not because of the mechanical reasons, but because the idea is, these two pieces of craftmanship, of which one is the ancient work of dwarven craftsmen, who are far beyond anything men can make, and it gives +1 to +3, while a fairly recently made(Leather armor, after all, cant be that old), gives +3 flat AND 1d6 for free.

Think thats about it! Sorry for the wall of text, just wanted to make sure I replied to everything I found.

Good analysis Kullervo.

Your thoughts on Dwarven Crafting do make the gaining Permanent Shadow/Driven seem NOT worthwhile. Basically, only craft if you're going to roll for it or spend XP. Otherwise, you're likely to go mad.

I think Dark for Dark is pretty good. Being able to be a very effective Lookout is a skill that is not only used a lot, but can mean the difference between life and death if you're going to be ambushed. I guess that can be the case with a lot of skills (big consequences), but Awareness is a big one.
I think if I were to houserule this one, I'd also say that Dwarves with the Virtue ignore "moderately hindered" conditions due to low light (not other factors like snow or smoke).

Kullervo wrote:1) Dwarven Crafting: In regards to permanent shadow... I am inclined to believe permanent shadow is very harsh, for the reward in Craft Points it provides...

I thought the same but it's easy to 'tempt' the players into taking a permanent Shadow point by offering a few more Craftsmanship points - perhaps 3, maybe even a little more.

Kullervo wrote:2) I am actually really happy with the change to Inspecting the Carvings, since it was essentially a copy of the 'Study with a Craftsman' Undertaking. More social dice are always welcome, especially how this was phrased.

Yep, I think this is better. I would actually increase it to 3 bonus dice so it's the same as maxing out on your preliminary roll.

Kullervo wrote:3) Commissioning a Smith - Fair change. It didnt sound powerful to me until I realized that it essentially makes you roll 7 dice, which you can never do normally... Though its effectively the same thing as raising weapon skill, it lets you reroll that 1 and maybe get that 6 you wanted so... Yeah. Maybe not amazing for beginning characters, but for ones who already have maximized their weapon skill? Its pretty great. Alternatively, if your Valor is low but Weapon skill is high, its a cheaper way to increase it.

I actually think it's better for starting characters, or more accurately characters with lower weapon skill ratings. Someone with 4 or more in a skill isn't going to really need that reroll, as their total will likely be high enough to hit the TN or they'll have the required success for a called shot, but for someone with just a 2 or 3 in the skill - that could make lots of difference for them.

Kullervo wrote:4) Venomed: No questions here, it was just clarified to do what its meant to, and it seems neater this way. Still cursed though, so not sure how much use it'll see in player hands but Adversaries? Yep!

Yarp. Was going to houserule that if it hadn't have changed.

Kullervo wrote:5) As far the the Grey Mountains Awareness Virtue goes... Well, it is not the strongest, to be sure, but this is Awareness, its one of the worst rolls to fail. Cant really compare cultures to one another, different balances. I -think- the reason they wouldnt make it a flat bonus is because it would double-dip with the Stiff Neck bonus, which is already a flat bonus to Awareness...

I mentioned that above and agree, balancing elements of the rules (especially character benefits) is a tricky thing and assumption that Virtues balance isn't something I agree with. They obviously don't all the time and therefore should be looked at in a more organic way.