On the use (or not) of Valour

[Glorelendil]

Back on topic, I don't think any rule changes are needed to increase the use of Valour, just more intentional effort to find ways to use it.

For example, in my Underground Journey rules I have a type of obstacle that requires a Valour test to proceed. I.e., you have to leap over a chasm and although the leap itself doesn't require a roll (usually...) you do have to summon the courage to do so. For each failed Valour check until success you gain a Shadow point. That mechanic could easily be introduced during aboveground adventures as well, perhaps even in place of some Corruption checks when appropriate.

[uhu79]

Just to make sure, I looked up the fear test mechanics again.

Fear Tests, page 146 of the revised rules

Players make a Fear test when the adventurers face
something capable of striking fear or terror into their
hearts.
A Fear test is accomplished by rolling the Feat die and
a number of Success dice equal to a character’s Valour
rating.
The difficulty for the roll is usually TN 14, but it can be
raised or lowered by the Loremaster to better represent the
level of threat.
If a player successfully overcomes the test, his character
resists and doesn’t flinch. If the roll is failed, the character
is daunted and cannot spend Hope points for as long as
the hero is subjected to the source of fear.
Fear tests are related to the Heart attribute and can profit
from a Heart Attribute bonus.

So no need to change any rules - just apply them properly and maybe more often also in scenes outside of combat as I mentioned above.

[Stormcrow]

So no need to change any rules - just apply them properly and maybe more often also in scenes outside of combat as I mentioned above.

Agreed. I've been confused about the point of this topic, unless it's because Corruption tests happen frequently when traveling through or lingering in blighted areas, while Fear tests usually require the Loremaster to set one up. Just call for more Fear tests. The player-heroes aren't super-heroes, unfazed by anything and always ready with a smart quip. When they're faced with something daunting, call for a Fear test.

But don't do it too often, or the player-heroes will start to look like frightened hamsters.

[Falenthal]

I agree that the rules are good as they are. Only that we might need more examples of when to use them, specially in the official adventures.

Could we give examples of situations in our adventures that implied a Fear/Valour test, without being just an effect of the Strike Fear ability?

I'll begin with my last one:

During a Journey, after a scene where the heroes wake up to a nightmare, they have to succeed at a Valour test to manage to sleep again. If failed, they can't rest properly for the rest of the night and add 1 Fatigue, on top of not recovering Endurance that night.

[Robin Smallburrow]

My point in introducing this topic, as with the example I gave of the Search the Deep Tunnels Undertaking,
is that the game developers at Cubicle 7 often use Corruption tests when in fact Valour should be used instead, as these situations are IMHO really a test of a PC's Courage & bravery in tough situations.

Some players of mine have even remarked to me that the only point they see of a High Valour is with Tolerance for those NPC's who value Valour rather than Wisdom. When you get players making such remarks you know that there is a game mechanic that is being under utilised.....

Robin S.

[Glorelendil]

When you get players making such remarks you know that there is a game mechanic that is being under utilised.....

Sure, but not necessarily because of anything intrinsic to the game.

[Feanor]

All these above pointers are good and true i believe. But, you are all missing one point, and that is that it is all a question of spending your earnt experience points as a player.

The system endorses people that choose virtues for their characters before valour. Why is that? because both the bonuses and fluff feelings of Virtues are much greater. So for instance, if i have a character that has 2/2/2 in Wisdom, Valour and prefferred weapon skill, id normally increase Wisdom first simply because the bonuses of said virtues are to a much greater benefit to the character systemswise than the weaponskill and most especially Valour bonuses, nevermind if my character is valourus or not. so any GM would do well to make the Valour choices better than they are, so they can have a much greater impact if being chosen. The alternative is to numb down the virtues quite alot.

It shouldnt be a choice between Valour and Wisdom first simply becuase one is "systematically and mathematically better". The choice should be made out of what the player percieves his character to be. And that can only happen for a 100% of the players playing the game if there is a balance between Valour and Wisdom bonuses.

In my opinion, the only question whether to raise Valour, today stems from the cost of the raising. I have yet to see any player that has raised Valour 2 steps over Wisdom. but the opposite choice, happens quite often. Its worth rasing Wisdom before Valour, 90 % of the times, at least in a mathematical sense. Thats how much better Wisdom is compared to valour.

The previous pointers and concerns people have shared here i all agree with. But i DO think the essence of the problem is "Bang for your buck" investments in terms of experience spent, and NOT the fact that you roll more rolls for Wisdom than for Valour, which is true and needs to be adressed, of course.

[Feanor]

my post was somewhat not to the point of this thread.

But im all in favor of punishing players raising only their wisdom for the sake i wrote in my above post!

So more pointers on when to use Valour is all good.

[Glorelendil]

What if Corruption checks could be either Valour or Wisdom, whichever the player chooses? (Typically the higher one, but not necessarily...e.g. Hobbits.)

[Indur Dawndeath]

I have emphasised and confronted my players with adversaries that use Fear as a weapon. The Enemys greatest weapon is fear.
I guarantee the players will prioritize Valour after encountering enemies with the abilitis: Terror, visions of torment and other abilities unlocked when the players are Daunted.
It was only our Barding hero who dared to climb the stairs to the Necromancers hall...

No need to change, just apply tests more often!