forums.cubicle7.co.uk
archive

Hey I'm reading through the Shadow section of the rulebook and it mentions how manipulating, lying, or intimating others can earn you lots of corruption. Would this be true when interacting with adversaries and evil creatures as well? I would like to think deceiving a troll to avoid killing it would not be a shadow-accruing activity. Am I missing something?

kdresser wrote:Hey I'm reading through the Shadow section of the rulebook and it mentions how manipulating, lying, or intimating others can earn you lots of corruption. Would this be true when interacting with adversaries and evil creatures as well? I would like to think deceiving a troll to avoid killing it would not be a shadow-accruing activity. Am I missing something?

It's a really interesting question... was Gandalf being Evil by tricking the trolls into being exposed to the sunlight? I doubt, it was a matter of life and death, after all. Tricking a foe in order to avoid bloodshed is probably okay, although I would think quite a bit about unintended consequences... the problem you put off today might be a disaster tomorrow.

I do think definitely that there are things that would generate corruption / outright Shadow... lying to an enemy, promising protection and then reneging on that oath would be a big one.

zedturtle wrote:

kdresser wrote:Hey I'm reading through the Shadow section of the rulebook and it mentions how manipulating, lying, or intimating others can earn you lots of corruption. Would this be true when interacting with adversaries and evil creatures as well? I would like to think deceiving a troll to avoid killing it would not be a shadow-accruing activity. Am I missing something?

It's a really interesting question... was Gandalf being Evil by tricking the trolls into being exposed to the sunlight? I doubt, it was a matter of life and death, after all. Tricking a foe in order to avoid bloodshed is probably okay, although I would think quite a bit about unintended consequences... the problem you put off today might be a disaster tomorrow.

I do think definitely that there are things that would generate corruption / outright Shadow... lying to an enemy, promising protection and then reneging on that oath would be a big one.

Ah i thought I might be missing something in the rules.

Other situations that come to mind:

Gandalf deceiving the guards to let him bring his staff in
Aragorn beheading the Mouth of Sauron when he offers to negotiate
Bilbo lying to Smaug, Gollum, and the Trolls

kdresser wrote:Gandalf deceiving the guards to let him bring his staff in

I don't really see him deceiving the guards, he simply insists on keeping the staff and they allow him to do so.

Aragorn beheading the Mouth of Sauron when he offers to negotiate

"But he looked at the fell faces of the Captains, and their deadly eyes, and fear overcame his wrath. He gave a great cry, and turned, leaped upon his steed, and with his company galloped madly back to Cirith Gorgor."

Bilbo lying to Smaug, Gollum, and the Trolls

Bilbo doesn't lie to Smaug, he does Riddle the heck out of him.

Kind of same thing with Gollum.

Trolls are a bit more iffy, and one where maybe you might possibly say that a Corruption Test might be warranted, but you are dealing with giant man-eating monsters. Some discretion in speech might be advised.

I suppose I've actually been bringing to mind scenes from the films. Even so, when these deeds were done, they did not seem inappropriate, out of character, or corruptible. I suppose these will have to be judgment calls by the LM. I would certainly not label any of these as misdeeds.

This is an excellent question and one for which there is no absolute answer. Whilst TOR seeks to emulate the theme and atmospheric feel of Tolkien's works, more than a little turns on each individual LM's interpretation of Tolkien's works.

My own take on this turns on the thorny question of black and white lies, or the difference between clever play on words or situations and outright deceit. That will inevitably be almost entirely situational oriented depending on the circumstances of your game and the adventure at hand. As LM, trust your own instincts and try to encourage players along the lines you think are right, but always give fair notice when they start to risk earning themselves some Shadow. The key to remember is that Shadow imposition is not punishment, and should never be imposed as if it was, rather it is the moral corruption characters suffer in Middle Earth flowing from corrupting situations or misdeeds.

Try to respect your players' views without entering into a dispiriting debate which will wreck the play for everyone. But remember that you as LM are responsible for the flow of the game and it is your gut instinct which must prevail. Defer any detailed discussion of your "ruling" until after the session has ended, and then keep things friendly with a beverage or too and good humoured compromise. Because there are no absolute black and white tests for misdeeds and Shadow gain, some of your players may take their own different view on things from time to time, but if you are consistent, fair and transparent in your approach, then they should be able to move on too to keep the game going.

cheers
Mark

I agree with all the above advice. I would factor intent in as well. What is the character's motivation? If he has malicious intent, I might give him a point of shadow outright. If the situation is less certain, have the player roll a corruption test so that he has a chance of avoiding the shadow point.

Agree about intent. Somehow the purpose and the target factor into it. Duplicity isn't necessarily dishonorable.

Glorelendil wrote:Agree about intent. Somehow the purpose and the target factor into it. Duplicity isn't necessarily dishonorable.

Yeah, I think it's a lot about consequences... if Gollum got the upper hand, he was going to eat Bilbo. Same with the trolls. And Smaug. Apparently Tolkien had a thing there.

Zed pulls his mind back from dark places.

Anyways, I do think that it's a bit about the consequences of honesty, the nature of the foe, and the relative power levels between hero and foe. Long story short, I think it's just one of those things that the Loremaster needs to make a call on in the moment, and you can't be wrong... it all comes down to what feels right for your group and the story you're trying to tell anyways.

I am LM'ing my TOR campaign where the Company have come across a small group of orc soldiers and goblin archers below them on a knoll, busy watching something elsewhere and not keeping a very good watch. This was an out-of-the-blue encounter - the company had no inkling of what these adversaries had been doing or might do in the future. They didn't wait to scout to see what this group was watching - not necessarily expected either.
This group of inexperienced heroes have nevertheless moved up, all making their stealth or other appropriate rolls, and then ambushed them - two archers firing into their targets then following the other four heroes into melee.
The orcs and goblins were cut down in one round of melee, except one of the two goblin archer who was injured - now facing the six heroes on his own with a jagged knife. I think he will attempt to flee! Our next session is tomorrow evening.
Since that last session I have had occasional thoughts about this battle - that is, considering the moral aspects.
I didn't expect anything else but that the Company would fight the orcs and goblins - they are still learning the rules and their own characters. In other RPG's, this would be expected. However, in TOR Corruption rules, this is outright unprovoked aggression - despite the fact it is focussed on, let's face it, monsters.
I was thinking of asking the players why they attacked without a second thought and using it as a lesson for the future - warning them that on future occasions they could expect 4(!) automatic Shadow points, as I didn't want to 'punish' their characters. However as someone said on this Forum (can't recall who or where), Shadow points are not for punishment, but to show how characters are exposed to evil/Shadow, which can lead to their own deeds being questionable.
I'm not expecting someone to tell me what path to take here - I'm thinking of somewhere between a quick talk about moral choices for their characters and NO consequences and slapping the 4 Shadow points on each of them.
Probably a harsh warning and a Corruption check for 1 Shadow...

So ambushing Orcs/goblins for no particular reason apart from the fact they are there - a Misdeed or not?
Different than doing the same to human bandits or similar, I would have thought.
I have told them numerous times that Orcs and Goblins still make the areas along the Anduin dangerous, just less since the Battle of the Five Armies.