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Fatpob wrote: Based on the basic fact that each hit will do 4 endurance, the 7 wits 19 endurance Elf is actually equivalent of having an endurance of between 23 and 27 endurance. If the endurance loss is higher off the basic attack, the Wits is worth far more.

Well, you're saying that a difference of 5 in Parry is worth ~6 Endurance (4-8 by your math). That (plus all the other factors previously mentioned) makes that something not worth worrying about.

It should be noted that it's not always wise to compare the physical combat strengths and weaknesses of each Culture; characters are balanced across all facets of play, not just the physical aspects of combat - combat, journeys, Hope expenditure, Fear tests, social mechanics, Shadow usage, spells, etc. Taking just one 'slice' of these and comparing it across cultures will not produce accurate conclusions.

True the barding double feat on fear has saved my character more than one kicking.

With a one handed weapon, each great success for the body 7 Man is taking out an orc soldier in a single blow. And after each fight, the person with more heart is recovering more endurance. Not to mention having more hope to spend in the first place, and very likely having better armor. It is my experience that more endurance usually, if not always is used in order to get better protection checks via encumbrance (and spending a point of hope also helps the high body person more).

It is true that, all other things being equal, low wits characters get hit more often if they stay in the same stances as high wits characters. But combat is dynamic, with stance changes, combat tasks, and a plethora of virtues and gear changing things. Or bad guy abilities. Add a couple of giant bats Bewildering folks, and your high wits folks will look far worse.

In general, wits is one of the important combat stats, along with body. But in actual play, I find it is no more or less valuable than the others. Being miserable is worse than being weary, and that's tied to heart. There are a multitude of ways to deal with low wits, from avoiding forward stances, to virtues, to simply selecting one of the more evenly statted backgrounds. Or just accept it.

Despite his higher wits, the dwarf if the game I run almost always has a lower defense than the Bardings, because he hangs out in forward stance almost all the time, and has a Greataxe. He gets hit more often, and has kept a nice buffer of about 16 endurance between max and fatigue to deal with it.

Scrollreader wrote:There are a multitude of ways to deal with low wits... ... Or just accept it.

One of my players has a Beorning character and I've told him to embrace it. He plays Grimbold as somewhat slow witted but this really comes out in long complicated discussion or difficult/intellectual issues where he quickly gets bored and frustrated. I really like that he doesn't play him as just some big dumb hulk but in a more subtle way.

However, he regularly doles out 26 points of damage when he hits with an extraordinary success.

He's a great character and makes me want to play a Beorning if I ever got the opportunity to play rather than GM.

Fatpob wrote:I understand cultures have strengths and weaknesses, and the balance within the cultures is important. However suggesting a culture that has SwordMaster as a Virtue isn't martial seems somewhat amiss.

That wasn't what I was suggesting, actually. I was suggesting that every Culture tends to have at least one or two more martial Virtues (or specific Rewards), and that if you want to be really good at combat you probably want to pick one up regardless of Culture. This is probably a bit more true of low Wit cultures, but by no means exclusive to them.

Fatpob wrote:I get that the Bardings (and similar low wit cultures) benefit at the other end with higher body and heart, so higher damage capability and more endurance and hope.

Yep. Also, the ability to stave off Shadow and fear better (Heart adds to Wisdom and Valour checks, remember) and getting wounded much less often (Body adds to Protection tests). Plus healing (based on Heart) and adding to Weapon Skill Tests in emergencies (based on Body).

Fatpob wrote:However there is a far greater differential between a wits of 2 and a wits of 7 than between 19 endurance and 24 endurance.

On its own? Absolutely. Parry is far more valuable than Endurance alone. That said, Heart gives the following things per point (in addition to the bonus on Common Skills all three stats grant):

-1 Endurance
-1 Hope
-A +1 to Wisdom or Valour checks on a Hope expenditure
-Increased healing rate (including a slight increase in the effectiveness of Song or Inspire to heal others).

Body gives the following per point:

-1 Damage
-A +1 to Protection tests when you spend a Hope
-A +1 to Weapon Skill tests when you spend a Hope

Wits gives the following per point:

-1 Parry

So...Wits would be pretty crappy stat if Parry weren't better than any single thing the other stats grant, given that they grant 3 or 4 separate things to the single one Wits does. But those three or four things together are probably just as valuable as Parry is.

Fatpob wrote:example for wits 2 with shield in defensive stance (TN 17) vs Orc Soldier, Orc Guard and Great Orc

Orc 2d + Feat 22% hit chance
Orc Guard 3d + feat 53% hit chance
Great Orc 3d + feat + 7 96% hit chance

vs our elf with shield TN 22
Orc 2d + Feat 9% hit chance (Basically a Sauron or 2 x 6's and a 10)
Orc Guard 3d + feat 18% hit chance
Great Orc 3d + feat + 7 67% hit chance

Based on the basic fact that each hit will do 4 endurance, the 7 wits 19 endurance Elf is actually equivalent of having an endurance of between 23 and 27 endurance. If the endurance loss is higher off the basic attack, the Wits is worth far more.

I appreciate I have used extremes to illustrate the point, but even wits 5 is a significant advantage at 13%, 27% and 84%.

Okay, first off, if comparing equivalent characters (ie: a Body 5, Heart 2, Wits 7 Elf with a Body 5 Heart 7, Wits 2 Barding), you're comparing 22 Endurance for the Elf with 29 for the Barding, and 10 Hope for the Elf with 15 for the Barding. So...that's a 7 Endurance advantage, not 5 (as well as 5 Hope). As Rich H notes, thew base stats matter too (and high Wit cultures universally have some of the lower Endurance scores around, though admittedly mid-Wit cultures fare better). And that's 7 Endurance where you aren't weary, too, a not insignificant advantage.

Second, those percentages are a tad bit misleading, because it's mostly the not-great hits that get ignored by the high Wits guy, while the really good ones still get through. No amount of Parry ever saves you from Eyes of Sauron, after all.

Thirdly, the Barding can spend 1 Virtue and get +3 Parry and be way closer to the Elf (that 13, 27, 84 set of numbers)...while the Elf has no real equivalent way to catch up to the Barding's Heart-based advantages. I mean, he can get Elven Dreams and catch up on healing...but Wisdom and Valour tests? The extra Endurance and Hope? He'd need to spend several Virtues on less than great options to even get close.

Now, that's not to say the Elf has no options, he does (he can get a Spearman's Shield and Great Spear and be miles better offensively, while remaining equal defensively to the Swordmaster Barding, just for example), but the Barding does have some serious advantages the Elf can't duplicate.

Wits 2 is the best.
Use a two-handed weapon and take a Forward stance. Have your buddy with higher wits take Defensive stance and make sure you're their Fellowship Focus. They declare they're protecting you. Engage as many targets as you can.
If an enemy doesn't hit you, good for you. If they manage it, your buddy spends Hope and takes the hit, using their parry and stance. They're not getting hit.
Now, I just re-read the rules, and realized that my interpretation of fellowship focus as a source of inspiration was a bit broader than RAW -- that says you only get the Hope back if you're using it for an Attribute bonus, not in this specific instance. So, at my table, your buddy would keep refreshing Hope. At your table, maybe not so much. But that's what songs are for.

fencingmonkey wrote:Wits 2 is the best.
Use a two-handed weapon and take a Forward stance. Have your buddy with higher wits take Defensive stance and make sure you're their Fellowship Focus. They declare they're protecting you. Engage as many targets as you can.
If an enemy doesn't hit you, good for you. If they manage it, your buddy spends Hope and takes the hit, using their parry and stance. They're not getting hit.
Now, I just re-read the rules, and realized that my interpretation of fellowship focus as a source of inspiration was a bit broader than RAW -- that says you only get the Hope back if you're using it for an Attribute bonus, not in this specific instance. So, at my table, your buddy would keep refreshing Hope. At your table, maybe not so much. But that's what songs are for.

This is, as noted, not RAW. And while I personally am fine with doing it (and indeed my character often protects his Fellowship Focus in precisely this way), I would be very dubious about a character who was entirely built around the idea. That's abusing the GM's kindness in allowing that trick to work at all, IMO.

And relying on someone doing this in a group that doesn't use the 'protecting your Fellowship Focus is free' thing is extraordinarily selfish and IMO extremely poor form. Hope is precious (no matter how many Songs you have) and becoming a Hope sink for the party as your primary combat tactic is just a huge dick move.

fencingmonkey wrote: If an enemy doesn't hit you, good for you. If they manage it, your buddy spends Hope and takes the hit, using their parry and stance. They're not getting hit.

Not quite: the character in Defensive stance has to declare he is taking the hit before the adversary rolls, not after.
And there's always the chance of rolling an Eye for the enemy: automatic hit and Protection test for the character in Defensive stance.

Falenthal wrote:

fencingmonkey wrote: If an enemy doesn't hit you, good for you. If they manage it, your buddy spends Hope and takes the hit, using their parry and stance. They're not getting hit.

Not quite: the character in Defensive stance has to declare he is taking the hit before the adversary rolls, not after.
And there's always the chance of rolling an Eye for the enemy: automatic hit and Protection test for the character in Defensive stance.

Huh. The passage in question is

When the protected character is attacked, the protecting hero may choose to spend 1 point of Hope and become the target of the attack in his place. The attack is resolved using the stance of the defending character to calculate its TN.

I never read that to mean that the Hope expenditure had to be made before the attack was rolled, but I can certainly see that as a valid interpretation. Of course, my thoughts are colored by running so much PbP, where players don't really have a chance to do an interrupt. I wonder what everyone else thinks...