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Glorelendil wrote:Is there another example of any use of Hope where you're using it blindly and potentially wasting it?

The only one I can think of is in Staunching Song: The Woodman has to use a Hope point to use Staunching Song on a companion. But using Staunching Song needs a roll of Song TN14 that could fail.
If the Woodman fails the Song test, the Hope point is wasted.

Maybe Stinging Arrow could also be considered in this category: you manage automatically a Piercing blow upon a succesful attack, but the adversary can still succed at its Protection test.

Glorelendil wrote:Is there another example of any use of Hope where you're using it blindly and potentially wasting it?

Well Staunching Song is, as noted, one possible example of something that does this directly (though Stinging Arrow isn't...it explicitly occurs after the shot).

Poison Remedies under Herbal Remedies is an even more direct example, requiring a Hope spent and then a Craft roll (in that order) to be effective.

Spending Hope to fulfill a role and deal with a Hazard is another good example. You need to spend Hope to make the roll at all, with no surety of success at all.

That's all a quick skim of the rules gives me, but the Roles/Hazard example particularly is a pretty solid piece of evidence that the rules allow for this.

Oh, I always read Staunching Song to mean that once you have rolled Song and restored Endurance, you may spend a point of Hope to also give the same benefit somebody else. That's another one for the "need clarification" folder.

And Stinging Arrow / King's Blade I thought of (and even wrote a couple sentences to address but deleted them). I wouldn't count those because the benefit gained, the Pierce, is 100% sure. What happens after that is a different matter, but the Hope delivered as advertised.

Herbal (Poison) Remedies, however, is clearly a case of spend Hope for the chance at a benefit. Lame.

Nevertheless, I don't like the idea of spending Hope unnecessarily for Protect Companion. I'll continue to interpret that one as "when attacked" but "after the roll".

Glorelendil wrote:Oh, I always read Staunching Song to mean that once you have rolled Song and restored Endurance, you may spend a point of Hope to also give the same benefit somebody else. That's another one for the "need clarification" folder.

Yeah, that's probably fair.

Glorelendil wrote:And Stinging Arrow / King's Blade I thought of (and even wrote a couple sentences to address but deleted them). I wouldn't count those because the benefit gained, the Pierce, is 100% sure. What happens after that is a different matter, but the Hope delivered as advertised.

Oh, agreed.

Glorelendil wrote:Herbal (Poison) Remedies, however, is clearly a case of spend Hope for the chance at a benefit. Lame.

It's not too bad for most Woodmen in practice since you can pretty readily auto-succeed with Herb-lore or Leechcraft (which, IME, most Woodmen inclined to grabbing Herbal Remedies have one of). It serves as a pretty good demonstration of precedent, though. I still think the Roles/Hazards thing is an even better example.

Glorelendil wrote:Nevertheless, I don't like the idea of spending Hope unnecessarily for Protect Companion. I'll continue to interpret that one as "when attacked" but "after the roll".

That's perfectly reasonable.

Don't forget the other use of stinging arrow: you can spend a point of Hope to make an arrow fly up to twice as far as normal. As far as I can see, this doesn't guarantee that you'll hit with that arrow.

Although it's not entirely clear whether you need to spend the Hope point even to attack a target that far away (which is how it looks to me) or whether you can make the attack roll and then decide whether to spend the Hope (not my interpretation, but I could see it).

Glorelendil wrote:Oh, I always read Staunching Song to mean that once you have rolled Song and restored Endurance, you may spend a point of Hope to also give the same benefit somebody else. That's another one for the "need clarification" folder.

The way I interpret this one, the Woodman can do this whether or not they are wounded themselves. If the Woodman escaped a combat completely unscathed, but their ally was badly hurt, they could spend a point of Hope and use this ability (that otherwise could only be used by the Woodman on himself/herself), thus this being another example of spending a point of Hope without knowing whether it would be beneficial or actually work.

But I agree it could use clarification.

Majestic wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:Oh, I always read Staunching Song to mean that once you have rolled Song and restored Endurance, you may spend a point of Hope to also give the same benefit somebody else. That's another one for the "need clarification" folder.

The way I interpret this one, the Woodman can do this whether or not they are wounded themselves. If the Woodman escaped a combat completely unscathed, but their ally was badly hurt, they could spend a point of Hope and use this ability (that otherwise could only be used by the Woodman on himself/herself), thus this being another example of spending a point of Hope without knowing whether it would be beneficial or actually work.

But I agree it could use clarification.

I see it as Majestic, but it's unclear.

If the Woodman succesfully heals himself, can he spend a Hope point and use the same result for a companion? Or should he roll again?

I read it as: make a Song test to try heal yourself for free OR use a Hope point to make a Song test to try heal a companion.

So the suggestion is someone can use Protect Companion after the dice roll has been made?

Reading the rules, there is absolutely no suggestion that is the case:

Defensive stance: Protect Companion
Fíli and Kíli had fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mother’s elder brother.

A character fighting in a Defensive stance may strive to protect another hero fighting in an Open or Forward stance. He must announce the name of the character he wants to protect right after choosing his stance for the coming turn.

When the protected character is attacked, the protecting hero may choose to spend 1 point of Hope and become the target of the attack in his place. The attack is resolved using the stance of the defending character to calculate its
TN. Note that a hero who chooses this task may still attack when his turn comes.

What you are saying is that if it's a poor roll, the character gets away with it, but if the roll is decent the Defensive Player can choose to take the blow.

So the questions would be; Is the attack rolled again? Does the defender know the roll?

If the player knows the roll result they can simply compare to their defence and decide if they want the slap, or leave it to the protected character.

This has plenty of potential for abuse IMO, sort of gives the defender a strong position, they can decide to spend a hope for their companion to be missed basically.

The point of the HOPE cost is to indicate that you choose to stand in the way when the big bad steps in to batter your companion, putting your body on the line. If the defensive character already knows the result, it really isn't the same.

I've asked Francesco directly for clarification on Hope spend for Protect Companion. Hopefully I can get an official answer soon.

Fatpob wrote:So the suggestion is someone can use Protect Companion after the dice roll has been made?

Reading the rules, there is absolutely no suggestion that is the case

The discussion is really more about rules intent not how its written. The debate being about how Hope is used/employed within the game, for some it doesn't quite follow with how Hope is used elsewhere and isn't to the spirit of how Hope works.

Fatpob wrote:What you are saying is that if it's a poor roll, the character gets away with it, but if the roll is decent the Defensive Player can choose to take the blow.

So the questions would be; Is the attack rolled again? Does the defender know the roll?

If the player knows the roll result they can simply compare to their defence and decide if they want the slap, or leave it to the protected character.

This has plenty of potential for abuse IMO, sort of gives the defender a strong position, they can decide to spend a hope for their companion to be missed basically.

An easy way to address what you're alluding to here is just to say whether the attack would hit the original character not the one stepping it. You don't tell them the roll result, just that if the protector doesn't step in then his companion will be succesfully attacked. I've run it this way since I started playing when TOR came out and it isn't open to abuse; players rarely use it because of the Hope cost, they wouldn't use it at all if the Hope point had to be spent before the attack was even made. Which seems a waste of what is a pretty cool idea/option within the game.

I think 90% of posters are in agreement that the above interpretation is completely reasonable and isn't game-breaking; my actual play would back that up.