Bow's and Great Bows

[Corvo]

@Hermes Serpent
About Stinging Arrows and Great Bow. I think it's because an elf PC can "build" his Great Bow from the ground up: 2xp for skill 1, 4 xp for skill 2, etc.
Heck, if you want you can buy Mattock too
This is to say that -as far as I remember- elves got no restriction on weapon choice.

About the rest of your post... Well, I agree with your summary of the situation.

If the OP want to make the bow viable over the Great Bow, he's gonna do a bit of heavy lifting, as house-rules go.

[Hermes Serpent]

It might be that an Elf could build his Great bow skill from nothing but I really like the idea of some Elvish culture doing the Great bow thing. I couldn't say which one might be best suited to having a Great bow though.

On the other hand why would the authors make a specific ruling about such a niche option as an Elf making a Great bow skill from the ground up? The skill/spell would work just as well if they hadn't specifically called out the usage for a Great bow. I don't remember similar wording being used elsewhere and they are fairly good about capitalising words where a specific definition is meant (hope versus Hope for example).

[doctheweasel]

I think that maybe the great bow should have a penalty or two to fit in with the narrative.

Maybe they gain one less opening volley and/or you can't factor your Wits into Parry while wielding one. These could be always present, or just in confined quarters (the latter fits the narrative more, and also explains why Elves/Woodmen would use regular bows).

[James Harrison]

It could simply be that it makes no sense that an elf's magic would fail to work with a great bow arrow.

It has veered off a bit - I like your point about the progression not being there beforehand. Still my intention is to give the bow a boost to make it somehow "onpar" with the great bow

There are many obvious ways to do this (+2 base damage, +1 base edge, +2 base Injury) but I personally think these things throw things a little off kilter; edge would make it potentially more deadly, injury would make the "piercing even the toughest armour" of the great bow a lie... the damage could be o.k. but doesn't feel right.

I'm happy with my woodsman pc using a great bow - but I suspect all woodsman archer PC's would use a great bow - so feel there should be a "bow advantage" that makes it seem a strong option to pro-actively choose a bow for a primary archer. Mechanically backing up fluff.

The bow for sylvan is backed up nicely with rewards, virtues and, more importantly, being favoured...

I think my frustration is wanting to play a Woodsman, thus wanting to play up the "woodsy" aspect of the character he should choose a Bow over a Great bow.

The decision choice is; why would a Woodman character take a bow over a Great bow given that the (bows) cultural choice is the only bow choice for Woodmen; but this seems a mechanical fau par. Fluff wise I can do it anyway (I'm not planing to make the best archer... if I was I would be playing a barding), but I would like to feel that I'm not a hobbit choosing to use a dagger over a short sword

Actually I think that was a bad example, I can see somone doing that - indicating "I am not a fighter" I am not trained for war etc. But I do want to be an archer, and I do not want (bows) to be a choice between a mechanically superior and mechanically weaker option - which is what it feels like. (axes) and (swords) seem to give genuine options, but bows doesn't...

Meh! rambling, and its a very minor difference anyway, I shouldn't be bothered by it. I just like my options to be balanced against one another.

PS I don't like the shepards bow reward; it's +2 to +4 damage 1/12th of the time, on a hit that has the possibility to autokill. I think for damage grevious is superior; +2 damage on all hits - probably around 50% of the time.

Final thought - the balancing point of bows could be that, while it is a reward behind a great bow, the -2 endurance reward is the best reward.... and thus you can have an endurance 1 weapon while still plowing 3x "-2 endurances" onto your armour. meh!

The no wits to parry would be a terrible option. But -1 opening volley in confined spaces might be nice... it gives bows +1 opening volley without really giving them one... I'm nervous of restricting weapons, as it squashes some options for no reason: and what happens when the barding archer says I read my bow and pre-pair to ambush the orks, then gets no opening volley in the 1st round; would seem odd... +1 opening volley to the bow is a more elegant rule.

[Hermes Serpent]

@doctheweasel if you don't allow your Wits score as Parry then a bowman has no Parry score as they can't wield a shield. Parry represents the agility of the target in avoiding a strike/attack plus any physical protection from a shield so eliminating it penalises the Great bow archer in the extreme as a hero built as an archer will usually have a high Body value (for Ranged damage) and lower Wits anyway.

One less Opening volley would eliminate such an action for most Great bow users unless the shooter had the Elves Woodland bow Reward (and had built their Great bow skill from nothing) or the Opening shot range was such that the LM granted an extra volley. This might be justified as taking longer to string the Great bow with its higher draw weight as one doesn't stroll round all day every day with a bow strung (modern compound bows excepted I think).

It's interesting that Elves have more Virtues and Rewards associated specifically with Archery than any other single culture (one more than Bardings) despite being limited to bows in their initial setup, although two of their benefits do require a Hope spend to activate.

Maybe some sort of 'spend a Hope point to get a benefit for a bow' is what the OP needs to look at?

Edit: I see that James has clarified his approach a little. Perhaps a +1 Opening volley in woods would make a bow more attractive to Woodmen over a Great bow (and Hobbits, although I think a sling option is more in character for them).

[Corvo]

(...)
One less Opening volley would eliminate such an action for most Great bow users unless the shooter had the Elves Woodland bow Reward (and had built their Great bow skill from nothing) or the Opening shot range was such that the LM granted an extra volley. This might be justified as taking longer to string the Great bow with its higher draw weight as one doesn't stroll round all day every day with a bow strung (modern compound bows excepted I think).
(...)

By the way, the Woodland Bow reward is only for (short) Bow, not Great Bow.
No extra volley for Great Bow.

[James Harrison]

Maybe some sort of 'spend a Hope point to get a benefit for a bow' is what the OP needs to look at?

Aha, you might have something here... ok can we think of something suitable to attach to bow's that would make them an attractive option for an archer (it's weaker, but it's lighter, and i can spend hope to do X...)

finally I am happy with any buff to bows not to apply to Hobbits and dwarves, so there "only using bows" not Greatbows is a handicap - but I'm equally happy for them to have the benefit.

What do people like/dislike so far?

* Your 1st opening volley TN is at -2
* When using a bow in a forest it is considered favoured... (weak for elves)
* When using a bow in a forest you may re-roll the feat die and keep the best result
* When making an opening volley with a bow you may re-roll the feat dice and keep the best result
* Make +1 opening volley with a bow
* You may spend one point of hope to make +1 opening volley with a bow**
* If you get a G rune on the feat dice with a bow you may spend one point of hope to make another attack.

**While it is not very strong (well clearly less than the woodland bow reward) I kinda like this one. Combining the last two may be interesting; represents potential greater rate of fire - but it resource & luck intensive.

Specifically we seem to have come up with some triggers:
While in the forest
When making opening volleys
When a G rune is rolled
When you spend a point of hope

And some results:
+1 shot/volley
Bonus to hit
Re-roll feat dice

Any more options/thoughts (most have been suggested by my me ). Or do people think bow's are fine as it?

[doctheweasel]

@doctheweasel if you don't allow your Wits score as Parry then a bowman has no Parry score as they can't wield a shield. Parry represents the agility of the target in avoiding a strike/attack plus any physical protection from a shield so eliminating it penalises the Great bow archer in the extreme as a hero built as an archer will usually have a high Body value (for Ranged damage) and lower Wits anyway.

Well, yes. They would be relying on the high base TN or Rearward Stance, and the fact that not many enemies can reach them. To me that makes sense in comparing the situations a Barding (who are the main Great Bow users) would encounter vs a Woodland Elf or Woodman in a way that would reinforce the choices they make in the setting.

I'm just throwing ideas out there. I'm more inclined to add a situational penalty to the Great Bow that could be blown off depending on what the character expects to encounter rather than a blanket bonus.

[Hermes Serpent]

As an LM I like any choice that pushes a hero into giving up a Hope point. They refresh so slowly (via the Pool) that spending one on something other than helping your Focus is starting down that slippery slope into madness. This is the one thing that really comes out in long term play and having Elves and Dwarves in particular start to fritter away Hope for ephemeral advantage really points up one of the best features of the One Ring game system.

I've had players start out by spending Hope to avoid failing a Travel test where the result of failure is adding one point to Fatigue and now they consider carefully before spending a Hope point to raise their attack roll by their Body score to get five points of damage - if they have a tengwar then they tend to fall on the spend side of the equation. The only sure spend is when the result actually provides protection to their Focus illustrating neatly how the rules mesh together to ensure the right feel for the game.

Each player has by now calculated that they can spend one point of Hope each session outside the - getting it back for protecting their Focus - without a problem. Judging if the situation is dire enough to spend Hope keeps them on their toes.

For these reasons I'm reluctant to suggest a Hope spend as false advertising for the chances of an experienced company spending a point of Hope on a minor advantage is slight. Even some of the book Virtues strike me as better in the reading than the use. I'd think more than twice before spending a Hope point to get double the range on a bow shot for example.

Of your options I guess that 'While in a heavily wooded area or forest an Elf or Woodman making a successful attack roll with a bow and getting a G rune on the Feat die can spend a point of Hope to make a second attack at the same target' is a choice that is most in line with other rewards.

[Corvo]

The more I think of it, the more I'm persuaded by DocTheWeasel's idea, ie

“archers in rearward with Great Bow don't get Wits added to their Parry”

Let me explain my reasoning:
1-Barding are less damaged than others by this, because they got the lowest Wits: they lose 2-4 point from their Parry.
2-Woodmen and Elves, on the other hand, lose 4-7 point from their Parry, so they are encouraged to stick to the (short) Bow, and keep their agility intact.

On the whole it reinforce the idea that the Great Bow is something better used in open battles, with a shieldwall defending you from the enemy. The normal Bow is more suited to "skirmish" style close combat.