Bow's and Great Bows

[James Harrison]

I thought about this - but the hound can't sabotage the targets armour - he can only weary an opponent thw woodsman is in close combat with, not any opponent...
now if their were two woodmen...

[Corvo]

I thought about this - but the hound can't sabotage the targets armour - he can only weary an opponent thw woodsman is in close combat with, not any opponent...
now if their were two woodmen...

Yeah, if your prospective archer is the only woodman in the fellowship, you cannot have a dog to Harass Enemy while you stand in rearward stance

(well, Protect is cool to, and -by the rules- far less dangerous for the hound. But there I'm going off-topic...)

[James Harrison]

Why is it less dangerous for the hound... Because you are taking blows for someone else so Eye doesn't effect it? I'm not quite sure I follow Could you explain?

Any other thoughts on what would be an interesting bump to a bow to make it viable over a great bow?


God bless
j.

[Hermes Serpent]

As far as I can tell the Hound in Protect mode acts/counts as a companion in close combat. It doesn't actually say it fights so it isn't possible to attack it. Definitely less dangerous for the Hound.

The Harass enemy option when you are fighting in Open Stance drops your opponent's chance to hit by about 25% which makes up a bit for the usually poor/leather 2d armour that a Woodman uses.

[Corvo]

About the Hound: it's what Hermes Serpent wrote.
The hound is wounded when an attack directed to hero roll an Eye.
Using "protect", the opponents should outnumber the heroes (more than?) 3-1 to attack the archer (not just "more than 2-1"). No attack against the archer=the dog is safe.
So, unless the opponents got Leap, Fell Speed or ranged attack, the enemy got to destroy/overwhelm the fellowship in order to roll an attack against the woodman bowman.

About the bow. I admit that -beyond extra arrows in the opening volley- I don't know how to make the short bow stronger without... Well, shafting the spear, an already unpopular ranged weapon.

Maybe the road is to give some "malus" to the Great Bow (unwieldy? Slow?), but it's a dangerous road that I'm not keen on treading: even now many players feel that the ranged weapons are weaker or duller than melee ones (see Hermes Serpent post a bit above).

[Beleg]

I know this is very much a situational point, so feel free to ignore it, but I would argue that an ordinary bow can be used far more often. For instance, anywhere in Mirkwood, underground, on a rowboat... I say this mainly because I envisage the Great Bow as a Longbow, which were as tall, if not taller, than the person using them. I agree that the Great Bow is by far the more favourable weapon for the reasons you've already discussed, but I wonder whether the normal bow doesn't make up for this in its greater versatility?

[Corvo]

I know this is very much a situational point, so feel free to ignore it, but I would argue that an ordinary bow can be used far more often. For instance, anywhere in Mirkwood, underground, on a rowboat... I say this mainly because I envisage the Great Bow as a Longbow, which were as tall, if not taller, than the person using them. I agree that the Great Bow is by far the more favourable weapon for the reasons you've already discussed, but I wonder whether the normal bow doesn't make up for this in its greater versatility?

You are right. The problem is giving the Bow's greater versatility mechanical support.
The only way I can think at the moment is giving some malus to the Great Bow, but that is a problematic endeavor...

[James Harrison]

Duh! Yes when I was thinking of PROTECT I was thinking of the reward stance protect companions - Yep I see what you mean now! Sorry being dumb... and yes, the hound is safer

I was thinking this - for size appropriate races (thoes that could use a greatbow) when fighting in restricted conidions (the forest, tunnels etc.) bow get

* A opening volley even in a surprise round <<not certain on this, the next point is the real thing>>

*A feat dice RE-roll on opening volleys

Overall this seems as good as a virtue (not quite as the hobbit virtue, a feat die re-roll always) but the combination makes bows very attractive when G.Bows would not be...

A more simplified general version could be a feat dice re-roll on short range opening volleys, and a shot in a surprise round. This makes it seem strong enough to be worth considering over a G.Bow - early penetrating shots are great.

Thoughts?

The weakest version would be just a feat dice re-roll on the first opening volley. This seems good, but I can see someone with (bows) choosing it. You could give the same to a spear if it considered weak?

[Hermes Serpent]

To complicate things a bit in the evening up stakes you could rule that the Great bow needed to be used only in unrestricted circumstances and defining those as 'in the open, not in woods, buildings or underground and only on stable ground, not on horseback on a wagon or boat'. That nerfs the Great bow pretty much and keeps the regular bow as the preferred all-purpose ranged weapon.

I thought no option for a sling for Hobbits or perhaps a thrown stone choice was not so much in keeping with the books.

As for spears being thrown they are a good option for a close combat fighter who want's a one shot Opening round weapon before getting down to the meat and potatoes, melee.

[Hermes Serpent]

I've just gone back and re-looked at the original post for this thread as we've veered off into other territory.

The decision choice is; why would a Woodman character take a bow over a Great bow given that the (bows) cultural choice is the only bow choice for Woodmen.

Really it comes down to the Great bow does more damage and penetrates better than a bow so why should I choose a bow?

Looking at the rulebooks it would seem that the design choice was to make any character that lives mostly in Mirkwood (Woodmen and Elves) get a bow as a longer ranged missile weapon. The reasoning is perhaps summed up by AB p114 where Elves use a bow as they don't need the range in Mirkwood of a Great bow. By giving Woodmen the choice allows for them to also be ranging over the open ground of the Anduin Vales. (As an aside I note that Stinging Arrow [AB p130] mentions use with a Great bow. Is this an editing error, or perhaps an indication that another Elvish culture might use Great bows?)

Maybe the LM is supposed to rule that the length of a Great bow prohibits its use in the dense, close woods of the Mirkwood?

The range thing is only 10 yards extra for a Great bow (max 49yds for Bardings compared to 39yds for Elves with bows and 37 or 49 yds for Woodmen and Lakemen depending upon use of a bow or Great bow). The rules make no use of range in the combat section so it really only applies out of combat situations.

The only Virtue suitable for a bow or great bow used by a Woodman is Dour-handed, +1 damage.
The Rewards are Grievous, Keen and Fell plus Shepherd's bow with Shepherd's bow being the obvious choice for a lot more damage on a Piercing Blow.

The OP want's a bow to be more powerful than stated in the rules and is prepared to put in place house rules to make it so because it doesn't match a progression of power he sees as needed. I suspect that this wasn't a design choice that even came up because progressions of power weren't on the design table.