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Robin Smallburrow wrote:You are all forgetting that Bilbo is wearing The Ring when he overhears the Guard Captain etc. I think this was why he was able to understand them!

Now that's an interesting conjecture.

Robin Smallburrow wrote:You are all forgetting that Bilbo is wearing The Ring when he overhears the Guard Captain etc. I think this was why he was able to understand them!

Robin S.

Wrong magic Ring (unless the One Ring was fashioned from the Rhinegold)! However, Bilbo did have an opportunity to gain a basic grounding in Sindarin while the company was resting in Rivendell. And he had weeks to increase his understanding while trapped in the Woodland Realm.

Doesn't the ring allow Sam to understand Black Speech when he wears it?

bluejay wrote:Doesn't the ring allow Sam to understand Black Speech when he wears it?

Maybe in the films, but according to JRRT the Orcs often use the common tongue when speaking with Orcs from other clans or tribes. Many Orcs don't commonly use the Black Speech.

bluejay wrote:Doesn't the ring allow Sam to understand Black Speech when he wears it?

In Mirkwood, Bilbo manages to understand the Giant Attercops thanks to the Ring. It allows understanding of dark languages, it seems. But Sindarin would fall out of this category.

EDIT: Ok, to be fair, the text I've found could also be understood as if the spiders were talking in the Common Tongue, only that with very pronunciated hisses and creakings.

...and then in the silence and stillness of the wood he realised that these loathsome creatures were speaking one to another. Their voices were a sort of thin creaking and hissing, but he could make out many of the words that they said. They were talking about the dwarves!

I thought there was a sentence were it was explained that, as Bilbo took out the ring (probably when luring the spiders away from the trapped dwarves), he couldn't understand the spiders anymore. But if it exists, I can't find it.

Falenthal wrote:I thought there was a sentence were it was explained that, as Bilbo took out the ring (probably when luring the spiders away from the trapped dwarves), he couldn't understand the spiders anymore. But if it exists, I can't find it.

There is no such sentence. Indeed, he continues to understand the spiders after he takes off the ring.

The Hobbit, Chapter 8 wrote:Suddenly he saw, too, that there were spiders huge and horrible sitting in the branches above him, and ring or no ring he trembled with fear lest they should discover him. Standing behind a tree he watched a group of them for some time, and then in the silence and stillness of the wood he realised that these loathsome creatures were speaking one to another. Their voices were a sort of thin creaking and hissing, but he could make out many of the words that they said.

The Lord of the Rings, Book 4, Chapter 10 wrote:He listened. The Orcs from the tunnel and the others marching down had sighted one another, and both parties were now hurrying and shouting. He heard them both clearly, and he understood what they said. Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself.

Tolkien leaves this vague.

As for understanding Sindarin, this was obviously not even a question when The Hobbit was written, so all answers must be retrofitted. The most obvious to me is that Bilbo had had enough exposure to Sindarin to understand it. He'd met elves in the Shire, though whether they had ever spoken Sindarin and not Quenya in his earshot is unknown; he'd met elves in Rivendell who would certainly have spoken Sindarin, and he spent weeks in the halls of the Elvenking. The conversations he overhears between the butler, the captain, and the elves who come down from the feast aren't all that complicated. Tolkien even gives them archaic speech, a thing he does to indicate foreign or unfamiliar speech, e.g., "Come give us a taste of your sleeping-draught before we fall to! No need to wake the turnkey yonder."

You're absolutely right, Stormcrow. My memory and self-constructed ideas have failed me this time.

Stormcrow wrote:

The Lord of the Rings, Book 4, Chapter 10 wrote:He listened. The Orcs from the tunnel and the others marching down had sighted one another, and both parties were now hurrying and shouting. He heard them both clearly, and he understood what they said. Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself.

Tolkien leaves this vague.

Thanks. I'm not sure that I have ever taken particular note of the passage before, but it is very illuminating--especially considering that it is Sam who is wearing the Ring at that time. The Ring might well have been aiding Bilbo's understanding of the Wood-elves even if he simply attributed this to his own talents--or even assumed he was hearing them speak in the common tongue. It might have also helped him understand the spiders of Mirkwood though, as noted, he can still understand their speech even after he removes the Ring (a residual effect?).

quote="Stormcrow"]

The Lord of the Rings, Book 4, Chapter 10 wrote:Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, ...

It might be that the Ring doesn't really allow someone to speak or translate a language, but the thoughts, feelings and overall intentions of other sentient beings. It would fit the ability of Sauron of knowing what others want and luring them with their innermost desires.