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As a spinoff topic, what are the major themes of The Hobbit and LotR that you see as necessary to have in a ME RPG game?

There's a lot of opposing dynamics in the Lord of the Rings; off the top of my head, things like the following are all major themes:

Hope and despair
Good and evil
Light and shadow
Fate and free will
Purity and corruption
Selflessness and selfishness
Nature and technology
Generosity and avarice

Those are the 'big ideas' I take from it. All incredibly huge, moral and/or philosophical warring ideas, presented in a 'simple' story about a Hobbit, friendship, and a ring of power. I'm sure I've missed some others; loss already springs to mind. As a theme that's prevelent throughout the story.

Rich H wrote:There's a lot of opposing dynamics in the Lord of the Rings; off the top of my head, things like the following are all major themes:

Hope and despair
Good and evil
Light and shadow
Fate and free will
Purity and corruption
Selflessness and selfishness
Nature and technology
Generosity and avarice

Those are the 'big ideas' I take from it. All incredibly huge, moral and/or philosophical warring ideas, presented in a 'simple' story about a Hobbit, friendship, and a ring of power

Do you consider all of these necessary to get the Tolkien feel in an RPG?

fjw70 wrote:Do you consider all of these necessary to get the Tolkien feel in an RPG?

In varying amounts, yes. I sort of see them as 'dials' that can be raised or lowered somewhat but never reduced to zero. These kind of things are what Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings is all about for me. You can play without them but then you're just adventuring in a world that superficially looks, but doesn't feel or behave, like Middle-earth. Which is why I said in another thread that such a thing would be a little bit like smoking gear but without inhaling; pointless. To me these themes and ideas are fundamental and I need a Middle-earth game that supports them mechanically and/or through the official adventures it presents, the style of play it promotes, and the LM and player advice that it gives.

Here's a half-finished essay about Fate and Free Will and how it relates to gaming: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1951

I will also try to track down DeDicemanCometh's essay on RPG.net, because that was quite good.

From my 'Fan Supplement' here is what fans have already suggested in regards to Themes:

Main Themes
Friendship & Fellowship Tolkien emphasizes friendship as the only way for the side of Good to fight against the Evil that Sauron brings.
The ennoblement of the ignoble - in other words, show humble people doing great things.
Compassion & forgiveness : Tolkien’s tales are full of this.
Home: Middle-earth seems even more precious (and worth defending from Sauron) because it is so loved by its inhabitants.
Fear & doubt: Facing and overcoming fear and doubt is a key component of Tolkien’s stories. Misplaced fear is also a factor.
Perseverance: Continuing on with a task or duty even if the going gets tough. If there is one virtue Tolkien seems particularly to admire, it is perseverance.
Player vs Character: Overall it's important, in The One Ring more than other games, to acknowledge the distinction between Player and Character. What we're trying to do is give the player...the Tolkien junkie...the fixes they seek, without having to turn their characters into the central figures of the 3rd Age.

I agree with "interaction with canon" but I don't think it needs to specifically be with the canonical characters. In fact, I think direct interaction can be worse than indirect. (This brings to mind the old adage about how strategically placed clothing can be more suggestive than no clothing at all.) The "ghost" mentioned by the Woodmen in Tales from Wilderland is, I think, an excellent example. Or the backstory to the Easterly Inn.
And beyond just the characters, there's interaction with the history itself, both past and future, which is probably more important, e.g. Witherfinger. Without any direct claims of who or what she is, anybody who arrives at a certain conclusion is bound to get shivers. When it's stuff that the players know but the characters would not it's almost more effective...it's like having a secret you're just dying to share.

One fun way to do this is to make ‘forward’ historical references. That is, drop hints of things to come, that the players only know because they've read LoTR. They might encounter the very first shipment of pipeweed to leave the Shire for Isengard...they'll get that tingle of recognition, but they'll also be tortured by the thought they have it in their power to alter the future. But of course they can't because the characters don't understand the significance.

At just the right moment in time and place, the heroes might be sharing a glass of wine with a Mirkwood elf, a young guardsmen who confides..."just between you and me"...that lately he's had the curious assignment of guarding a "special prisoner" while he climbs a tall tree in the Mirkwood.
Continuity & History: Next is continuity, or the sense that heroes exist at one point in a continuous story that spans millennia. This goes beyond sprinkling Middle Earth with ancient ruins (not that there's anything wrong with ancient ruins.) As I mentioned in another thread, I love this passage in LoTR, where Shagrat and Gorbag (Frodo’s captors) are reminiscing:
“What d’you say? – if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.’
‘Ah!’ said Shagrat. ‘Like old times.”
It's subtle, but it's a sneaky reference to Sauron's return, and how the orcs enjoyed a period of relative independence, but now the "big bosses" were back in power.
Like the interactions mentioned above, these sorts of hints are best left subtle, or at least unstated: maybe the heroes come across a clearing on the east side of the Misty Mountains where a tall pine has been burnt to a crisp. Let the players draw their own conclusions.

Fading & Decline: Maybe the most important theme in Tolkien is the fading of the Elves and the transition to the age of Men. Tolwen has written some great stuff on this, and how the Art of the Elves was focused on preservation, as they attempted to keep the world they loved unblemished and unchanged, an exercise in futility for those who are immortal. (Spoiler alert: it didn't go as planned!) So in addition to the continuity mentioned above, the heroes should face a sense of decay. That the most beautiful bits of the world are slowly disappearing.

Big Bad Evil Guy (BBEG): This was alluded to in previous posts, but there is a trade-off between having every RPG campaign culminate in a world-saving fight against the Big Bad Evil Guy, versus having a campaign that just feels like a collection of generic RPG quests. The middle ground is tricky. Here I think the key is to have the players (even if the characters don't realize it) feel they are caught up in a small piece of the bigger picture, and that the blow they strike today will weaken Sauron in the long run. Or...perhaps better...their victories today will make it possible for Frodo's mission to succeed in the future. (The last adventure in Ruins of the North does this.)
The hard part is that this feeling of relevance needs to be a nearly constant presence; an adventure shouldn't feel like it's mostly just chasing treasure, or murder-hoboing, with some sort of hint at the end that ties it to canon. (Unless you're doing so intentionally for dramatic effect because you have a mind-blowing denouement in store, and thus you want your players to think they're just chasing some run-of-the-mill bandits or whatever.)

Other Themes
There should be a sense of self-sacrifice on the part of the player characters.
The player characters should have some reminder of the past, be it through an interaction with an NPC, an ancient artefact, or a place. That's what makes Middle-earth unique, the layers upon layers of history.
The players should be presented with moral choices that have tangible consequences.
Morality should be fairly black and white. Free peoples may have flaws, but they are basically good. Those who have aligned with the shadow are basically bad, although the Children of Ilúvatar (as well as hobbits and dwarves) should always have the possibility of redemption.
The story should focus on seeking knowledge and tools to fight the enemy more than on treasure or glory. For as much as it's easy to bash on Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG - and it's true that it often had the feel much more of a generic, high-powered epic fantasy - there is a two-page spread in the Core Rules that spells out the important elements of Tolkienesque gaming. I think it's titled 'The Quality of Heroes', IIRC.
It details what makes the Tolkien hero different from many other fantasy adventurers (what you might find in Game of Thrones, for instance). It explains qualities like humility, compassion, self-sacrifice, nobility, kindness, empathy, and many others. Without picking on any alternate play styles, the stereotypical "hack n' slash", where roving murderhobos kill monsters and gather loot (the stuff of a typical game of "Munchkin"), the protagonists in Middle-earth are more about defending their loved ones, establishing truth and justice, and protecting the innocent.
There's a general sadness and melancholy, especially surrounding the Elves and their passing of the torch to the era of Men. The Darkening of Mirkwood captures this so well, as the world gets more and more dark with the return of Sauron in the latter part of the Third Age (the default setting of TOR).
Any chance to have the characters engage in songs and poetry fits the setting as well.
Good and evil should be sharply contrasted; there should be way less 'grey' than you might otherwise see in a game. Adversaries like Orcs and Trolls are generally irredeemable, whereas there's almost always still hope to restore Men, even if they've started to head down the path of darkness.
Evil seeks more than just power and conquest. Heroes and the good forces love nature, the trees, and all of life, and evil tends to destroy the same and seeks to eradicate or dominate it.
Teamwork, loyalty, and camaraderie are qualities that the good forces can use for victory, but which elude those that are evil.
Often the lowliest of persons, like a simple gardener, can achieve the works of legends and songs, often simply through perseverance, loyalty, and determination.

Hope this is of use!

Robin S.

To me, only the Hobbit has a happy ending.
Even in that Bilbo returns and doesn't find it his home anymore.


But to me there are two defining themes:

1) The importance of friendship, both in the form of Frodo/Sam, Tauriel/Kili ( ) and Giml/Legolas, but also the whole Fellowship and how going through suffering together brings people closer.

2) The passing of the elves, or in general the slow "death" of magic in the world. Even when the reader enters the Hobbit/LotR, it's a pale pale world compared to Beleriand. Only small spots of elven magic (made possible by the elven rings) are intact, and when the One Ring is destroyed even that fades.

The first one is easy to incorporate in the game, but the later is a little hard.
When the TOR begins in 2946, less magic is actually a good thing, it's magic (albeit an evil kind) that is ruining the lives of those who dwell in/around it.
But I will try to emphasize the lost wonders of the world, and hope the players also see it as sad that the Mirkwood elves are dwindling.

My take:

1) The inevitable fading of beautiful things
2) Friendship/fellowship
3) The indistinguishability of chance from fate/design
4) The strength of simple goodness, hope, and determination
5) The subtle and endlessly creative ways that Shadow corrupts

Interesting answers. For me ME is most appealing as an RPG world for the world and not the stories (which I do love). I am not that worried about the themes in Tolkien's work as those are specific stories told in the world. Other stories (such as the ones told through RPGs or by Peter Jackson) can be very different.

As a world ME interest me because . . .

It is both very familiar to me as a D&D player but very different than most fantasy worlds.

Magic is all around but rare in the more powerful and flashy forms.

Gods and religion aren't important to most of the inhabitants (and no clerics).

There is a rich history but a lot of open areas to explore.


These are a few of these big ones for me.

Here's the other essay that I was talking about earlier: HOW DO I RUN A TOLKIENESQUE GAME?

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fjw70: I think one of the most important things that I think will resonate with you is the idea that Corey Olsen calls "northern courage"... the willingness to sacrifice oneself, despite the odds, and despite knowing whether or not it will make any difference, simply because it's the right thing to do. It's what drives Frodo to Mount Doom, Gandalf to confront the balrog, Boromir to sacrifice himself for the sake of the hobbits, Theoden to march to his death and Faramir to his near-death.

Heroes are the ones who step up when there's an opportunity to try to make the world a better place, regardless of the odds or the outcome.