What would people in Wilderland know about legends of old?

[Dunkelbrink]

Middle-earth is a world with a rich history and I've wondered if there is a plausible way to let the legends from the First age into the game, as that would be something that would enhance the experience. My players are not Tolkien scholars in anyway, but appreciate the richness of the world. When speaking about the Werewolf of MIrkwood it would be cool to connect it to the legend of Carcharoth and Huan (is the werewolf the same spirit reborn?), and the same with the Great Vampire and her predecessor Thuringwethil, for example.

But what do you think the inhabitants of Wilderland know about the past? Is it plausible that some NPC would know about the heroes of old and could enlighten the player heroes on the matter? A few of the Elves, like Elrond, would of course remember the old days, but how about other people? Would for example the library in Erebor contain material of the First Age? I guess that Beornings and Woodmen wouldn't know a thing or care about the old days, but what about scholars in Thranduil's court?

[Otaku-sempai]

For the Elves, Galadriel came to MIddle-earth from Valanor in the First Age. Lord Círdan actually took part in the Great Journey from Middle-earth to the Undying Lands. Elrond (and probably Thranduil) was born in the First Age. The four of them and many of their folk would have personal memories of the Second Age and the Last Alliance of Men and Elves. Both Rivendell and the Grey Havens would have records dating as far back as the First Age.

From their songs, I expect that the Dwarves maintain a strong oral tradition. Khazad-dûm was filled with not just Durin's Folk but also with immigrants from the Dwarf-cities of Belegost and Nogrod in the Blue Mountains. Erebor probably had archives including material brought out of Moria when Durin's Bane drove out the dwarves.

The Men of the North would have their own oral histories, though of Men the Dúnedain would know the most about Beleriand, the First Age, and (of course) Númenor. Again, both Rivendell and the Grey Havens might have records pertaining to the Kingdom of Arnor. And we know that Minas Tirith has archives that include histories and other accounts of ancient Gondor.

[zedturtle]

There are potential sources for information of the Elder Days: Irimë (before she leaves), is one of the best in Wilderland, along with Thranduil and perhaps a few other members of his court. Wuduseld can remind the Woodmen of what they once knew, but (of course) would not be comprehensive. Erebor, as OS mentioned, has lots of records too.

Oral traditions would be strong, I imagine. But remember that there's always a chance that there's an Elf in the audience who can say "That's not how it happened, I was there." which means that there's less possibility of corruption, at least for the more important (to the elves) stories.

[Otaku-sempai]

The Éothéod, ancestors of the Rohirrim, would have had an exceptionally strong oral tradition, and any remaining remnant of that folk who may still dwell in the Upper Vales of the Anduin might have some interesting stories to tell.

[bluejay]

It's funny because despite the sparse population of Eriador I'd say there are far more who remember the ancient past there, mostly thanks to Rivendell.

But of course the OP asked about Wilderland and that's a lot tougher.

I think with Third Age lore then sure you'd have some stuff but even the obscure carvings in Wuduseld only go back 500-800 years or so. While there are strong oral traditions they typically won't even remember that far back. Don't forget that Tolkien mentions in The Hobbit how the younger generation in Lake Town are skeptical about the existence of the dragon just because he hasn't been seen for decades. Amongst the northmen there seems to be less reverence and importance placed on history (compared with Elves, Numenoreans or even men of Gondor).

Obviously Radagast will be good for first hand experience in Wilderland at least back to 1000TA. Before that he would have to consult other sources (much as Gandalf learned from the Elves).

The Dwarves will undoubtedly have records and perhaps some even date back to their destroyed cities way back in the First Age but wow that's a stretch. They've been forced to move and their homes ransacked or destroyed so many times (Nogrod, Belegost, Khazad Dum, Erebor, mansions in the Grey Mountains, Erebor again) that surely a tiny fragment of such ancient lore could remain now.

Elves could themselves date back a long time and clearly Thranduil will remember at least the end of the Second Age. Possibly Elves have lived in the Greenwood since the First Age but they would likely have little knowledge of the events in Beleriand far to the West.

For actual First Age lore of the events in Beleriand, dating back more than 6000 years, then I honestly think that there are really only a few named individuals from canon or C7 published material: Irimë from Those Who Tarry No Longer, and Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlorien. There likely could still be a couple of others in Lorien who were from Eregion and haven't already left Middle-earth. They may remember the Second and possibly even the First Age but again most of the original settlement was made up of Silvan Elves who never went west of the Misty Mountains.

So yes if you wanted to use the First Age to add some weight and back story then I would highly recommend using Thranduil and members of his court. Right place anyway and both the Werewolf and Vampire are relevant to him. Even if he didn't know first hand he would likely have done some research and would have read ancient writings and advisors (such as Irimë) able to provide him with the relevant information.

[Falenthal]

What bluejay said is exactly how I see it. Only that he expressed it far better than I ever could!

If I may, I'd only add that Thranduil and his court tried to avoid the influence of the Noldor and heirs of the Beleriand Wars, and stay closer to the ways of the silvan elves. He is not an ignorant, of course, but most of the ancient knowledge he surely holds is probably hard to share, and by all means not openly.

[bluejay]

Thank you Falenthal, very kind!

I agree with you about Thranduil and particularly how he turned his back on the world after the last alliance.

In fact one question I have would be "who do we imagine to be in Thranduil's court?" As much as I love Those Who Tarry No Longer (and I've run it twice, both times it's been immensely successful) the idea of Irimë being a guest in the Woodland Realm did surprise me.

Perhaps those with more Tolkien lore than I possess could enlighten me regarding how much contact Thranduil and his people had with the other Elves? Legolas goes to Rivendell when Gollum escapes but it felt like a very uncommon thing to happen.

[spivo]

the idea of Irimë being a guest in the Woodland Realm did surprise me.

It could remind her of Nargothrond, and think that is enough reason for her to be there.

I can't see Thranduil denying any elven visitor, especially one such as her that would only bring more light to his halls.

[Finrod Felagund]

the idea of Irimë being a guest in the Woodland Realm did surprise me. Perhaps those with more Tolkien lore than I possess could enlighten me regarding how much contact Thranduil and his people had with the other Elves? Legolas goes to Rivendell when Gollum escapes but it felt like a very uncommon thing to happen.

She is almost certainly a one-off. Contact with other Elves happened (Lorien mainly) but was probably rare.

As a general point, pre-literate communities are generally believed to have an accurate recall of history of up to 125 years (5 generations). Beyond that it becomes myth. The Bardings/Beornings almost certainly know little about the history of the first age. Thranduil and perhaps a few of his higher ranking kinsmen knows more as would Radagast and Gandalf. You could have wandering 'Scops' (Bards) who would know a few songs from the first age but they might not know much about the real events behind them. Maybe you could have your PCs meet a high ranking Gondorian or Dunedain of Arnor and they would know more. Of course the other "person" who knows what happened is Sauron....

[Falenthal]

the idea of Irimë being a guest in the Woodland Realm did surprise me.

One of the first ideas I read on this forums was exacty this, and someone (I can't remember him, sorry) proposed that Irimë were an elf residing in Lórien. Before her departure West, Galadriel asked her a last favour: to go to Thranduil to warn him about the impending shadows over Mirkwood. After transmitting that message to the Elvenking, she continued her journey to the Havens.