Non fatigued endurance: what is a good value?

[Elmoth]

Hi there!

We are about to embark in a TOR game. It looks good! We have some issues coping with the break of the combat system when compared to other games, though. We asked in RPG.net (yeah, I know, I know) about or main problem with Armor, and they already corrected our first misunderstandings on how it worked and why it was important. However, their messages raised other questions. We are not puzzled to see what level of armor should we be going with. Basically, by the time we get to an armor level we like, we have run out of non-fatigued Endurance. Even before our first Travel roll!!!

So far we have
1 dwarf. Undecided on combat skills yet
1 woodsman (big axe, dog et al). Endurance 24
1 shooty elf. Endurance 25
1 shooty Bardian. Endurance 27

What level of protection do you think would be OK? 3D (mail)? 2D+helm? 2D only?
Or phrasing it otherwise: What is the level of non-fatigued Endurance that we should have, more or less? 8? 10? ... 22?

Thanks!
Xavi

[doctheweasel]

In my experience, somewhere around 10-12 points. I, personally, would lean towards having the higher side, since armor is less effective when Fatigued anyway, and a character is more likely to take Endurance damage than a Wound.

Most characters in my game have 2D. One wears a helm and the dwarf has 3D.

[Valarian]

Personally, I'd go for as much Endurance as possible. Balance out armour when protection rolls are needed. Equipment is abstract. The gear (summer/winter) contains the basics of bedroll and appropriate clothing. Additional equipment I do by trait. A burglar or mountaineer can be expected to have rope, a scholar can be expected to have writing gear.

Unless your character is a Dwarf, leather armour 1d or 2d is sufficient. The Barding may have some chainmail that they have in a chest at home. For local threats they might decide to take that instead.

Basically, travel light and live longer. The body weighed down by gear will get tired and will die. In this game, unlike D&D, encumbrance works as it should. No carrying of vast treasures and fighting as fresh as a daisy.

[Elmoth]

Thanks for the answers. With a woodsman the best you can achieve is 10 Non-fatigued endurance if you take 2D armor and a shield, and even then you need to ditch the spear altogether! Will take that in mind

Cheers,
Xavi

[Hermes Serpent]

Xavi, I've posted material in that thread over at RPG.net but it doesn't hurt to get more help here .

You've already got problems. Two archers in a four person party, even if the dog acts as an extra person, is not going to work. You need two close combat stance spots filled to have an archer in Rearward so one of your two bowmen is going to have to go into Defensive stance at least. For best bow use it's going to have to be the Elf getting a spear out, Bardings are much better than Elves even if they have a Woodland bow.

The Woodman should go for 2d armour plus cap and L-H axe with shield and stick to defensive stance. 17 encumbrance with bow (for Opening Shots) leaving 7 for damage/travel. Can drop his cap in combat to get 2 fatigue back temporarily if needed.
The Elf is another candidate for 2d armour plus cap with a Spear in defensive or open stance.17 encumbrance with Spear, shield, bow (for Opening shots) and sword leaving 8 for damage/travel. He could drop the shield and take 3d armour for only one more encumbrance.
The Barding uses Great bow and a sword and shield with 2d armour and a cap for 16 encumbrance leaving 11 for damage/travel.
The Dwarf armours up in 4d armour with cap and hits the heck out of stuff in Forward stance with his mattock. 20 encumbrance after using Redoubtable to reduce it leaves around 8 for damage/travel.

Many creatures inflict 3 - 5 damage when successfully hitting so 8-10 Endurance means 2-3 successful hits before getting Weary and most fights don't last more than that. You get back Heart in Endurance after a fight if not Wounded and a good night's sleep returns the rest (or at least 2+Heart's worth).

Besides the amount of armour protection you also need to think about your stance. Having 2d armour and going into open stance unless you are using Awe for one round to intimidate goblins is not sensible. Having a TN of 6+Parry sounds good when you are hitting that Spider but not when the spider is ensnaring you for supper.

[doctheweasel]

I wouldn't link Armor use to Stance, since Wounds usually come in with automatic hits.

I would choose stance based more on how much Endurance they have, since TN to hit is more of a factor there.

Loading that Dwarf with armor and then going Forward stance is going to get him Weary pretty fast (which then lowers the effectiveness of the armor).

[James Harrison]

Interesting... potentially heavy armour is better for characters in defensive stance? They will be hit less, and thus made weary less... and when they are hit it is more likely to be due to an eye... Hum...

For my woodsman I'm going very light armour and a hound + high wits... if I get wounded it's bad, but the hound can take a wound for me effectively: Shirt, Long-hafted Axe, Bow, Shield; encumbrance 11... although I'm quite tempted by a buckler and encumberence 9... my other build was Leather Courslet, Greatbow, dagger - encumbrance 11; but i do not think it is as versatile.

[Corvo]

The Woodman should go for 2d armour plus cap and L-H axe with shield and stick to defensive stance. 17 encumbrance with bow (for Opening Shots) leaving 7 for damage/travel. Can drop his cap in combat to get 2 fatigue back temporarily if needed.

Are you sure?
In the A-Book the Helm (Encumbrance 6) can be dropped to get 3 back, but not the Cap.

By the way, the Cap grant just a +1 to the roll, not so much for +2 encumbrance. Just for comparison for 4 encumbrance you got +1d6 to armour, on average 3.5, or 2.5 if you are fatigued.

Back to topic, my rule of thumb for encumbrance is no shield for archers (shields are a lot of weight), while melee fighters got just bow for missile combat (encumbrance 1), or nothing at all: spears as missile weapons are a luxury most starting heroes cannot afford (encumbrance 2 for just one shot? Maybe with just skill 1?).

...And Hermes Serpent is spot on on archers: you need 2 melee fighters for every archer, so you have to "drop" one...

[Corvo]

Thanks for the answers. With a woodsman the best you can achieve is 10 Non-fatigued endurance if you take 2D armor and a shield, and even then you need to ditch the spear altogether! Will take that in mind

Cheers,
Xavi

I think it's pretty fine. Get melee skill at 3 and come back for a spear later, when you got some more skill: with skill 1 isn't really worth 2 encumbrance.

About the shield... well, it weight a lot, and prevent you going 2-handed . You pay a lot for versatility. On the other hand you can go open or forward stance, too. Decisions, decisions...

[Elmoth]

Yes, the idea with the shield is being able to go into Open stance with some survival guarantees. Will see how it goes. If I do not like it, I can always leave it at a campsite

About the party members, I will pass the message, but everyone is making the character he fancies, so I am far from sure this will be heard. I had already detected that drawback, but hey, life is tough.

Thanks everybody for the feedback!
Xavi