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Much as it's interesting to read what others have done, I've now decided where I'm going with this, so will requote myself from my previous post as the last couple of comments have missed what I was asking for:

Rich H wrote:It is going to be tragic and I know the players/PCs will want to try and heal this poor creature and may well die trying.

Any ideas/suggestions as to how such an entwife could be helped/calmed. I'm thinking that when they companions encounter her in the dream she is chained with barbed wires and orcs smash drums and metal creating a cacophany of noise to torment and anger her. Later, in the present day, the PCs will encounter her as she attacks a tower/settlement within the Anduin Vale. A storm wages, which is driving her mad and the cause of her rage (in fact, the attacks of Mansbane only occur during such storms; although the PCs are not yet privvy to such info), so perhaps she can be calmed...

I'm thinking some ludicrously high rolls are required; perhaps an extended action of Song? And the PCs making Feat tests to stand their ground calmly and without aggression against such a raging creature?

Any ideas?

If we could try and keep the focus of the thread on this above quote then I'd appreciate it. Ta.

Just brainstorming . . .

• Any hobbits in the group? Perhaps hobbit voices/songs might interest her more than others ala Treebeard?
• An elf using The Speakers?
• Elf usage of lore/song for knowledge of entish--presumably some prior lore research might be required here.
• Elf lights??
• Calling on Elbereth, or perhaps more appropriately, the maya/ainur who made the trees of light/forests of ME, blanking on my Silmarillion right now.
• Use of magic/magical/wonderous items??

Not easy, since so little is known about the entwives. You've certainly given yourself a challenge! Will be interested to hear how it goes.

Following Cuthalion's ideas:

* Staunching Song, the Woodmen's Virtue, might have its origins in chants teached by the Entwives to the ancestors of the Woodmen.

* Silence, in some way, could be even more helpful than songs. Don't know how to implement this, but it's an idea. Allowing her to pursue the group, while they lure her into some silent place? Maybe there's something like that in the Heart of the Wild, and the fellowship might know about it before finding Mansbane.

Hi Rich!

That of the entwife is a fascinating idea.
Since you are asking for suggestions, I'll give my 2c.
Note: I don't have any book with me, so I can get the facts wrong.

The Elves were the ones that taught the Ents to speak, and only later they developed their own language.
So the deepest memories of the (oldest) Ents are tied to elven language (Sindarin, probably).
So I think that an Elf can have an easier time calming the entwife. The Speakers virtue is another bonus, and a moment to shine for an hero that choose such un-warlike skill.
Lacking any Elf, I would rule that any Sindarin-speaker can have a bonus. I think that any Hero with the "Old Lore" trait knows Sindarin (it's the Latin of M-e).

Failing that, remember that in Tolkien's opus a gentle soul can succeed were even the Wises fail: I would keep an eye on the traits of the least-warlike heroes.
With any character, I suppose that Songs is the best skill to use

Cheers all, some interesting ideas.

I need to have a think over this but will post later - have one or two ideas around the dream sequence of "Those Who Tarry..." which could make up for short comings with not having particular cultures or Virtues within the party.

More later.

Long post here, chaps, so bear with me as I'll be responding to the above comments/advice and adding further ideas and queries...

cuthalion wrote:Just brainstorming . . .

• Any hobbits in the group? Perhaps hobbit voices/songs might interest her more than others ala Treebeard?
• An elf using The Speakers?
• Elf usage of lore/song for knowledge of entish--presumably some prior lore research might be required here.
• Elf lights??
• Calling on Elbereth, or perhaps more appropriately, the maya/ainur who made the trees of light/forests of ME, blanking on my Silmarillion right now.
• Use of magic/magical/wonderous items??

I don't have any hobbits in my party and although we did have an elf he left the gaming group due to the usual (and annoying) real life commitments! I like the ideas above though so I wonder...

As I'm introducing Mansbane as the 'troll' one of the PCs will fight in Dol Guldur during the dream sequence, although at a stage where she is still being tormented and corrupted, I could include something of the above during that time. Within the dream sequence I was thinking of having the players use other characters - sort of how we are sometimes different or at least slightly different people within our dreams? So, the players would transfer their own Hope, Shadow, Calling and maybe Wisdom and a couple of more mental-based skills from their proper PCs to the ones they'll be using within their dream. But as these could be different cultures then that would allow us access to Virtues that they don't usually have and to use them within the dream. The knowledge gleaned from the encounter with Mansbane there in the pits of Dol Guldur could be used when they later meet her in the present day. Does that sound workable?

cuthalion wrote:Not easy, since so little is known about the entwives. You've certainly given yourself a challenge! Will be interested to hear how it goes.

I agree but as we don't know much then who knows what they look like; and if one was corrupted and tormented over a number of centuries then their appearance and abilities etc could be even more removed from whatever a true entwife could/would be.

Falenthal wrote:Following Cuthalion's ideas:

* Staunching Song, the Woodmen's Virtue, might have its origins in chants teached by the Entwives to the ancestors of the Woodmen.

* Silence, in some way, could be even more helpful than songs. Don't know how to implement this, but it's an idea. Allowing her to pursue the group, while they lure her into some silent place?

We do have a Woodman but he doesn't have Staunching Song. Curses! Perhaps though the PC could recall other kin using it and understand it's deep meaning and the roots of where it came from.

Here's an idea... As I was thinking of them encountering Mansbane in the present day after they have escorted Irime to the passes of the mountains. As part of that adventure, and assuming the players succeed in protecting her, she was going to gift them with treasures - blessed items and the like. Each PC would receive a gift (my way of introducing Treasure to the game) so one of these gifts could conceivably be an item of some kind that calms or heals? Maybe something keyed to the Song skill? This could then be used by the PCs should they wish to try and save Mansbane.

Falenthal wrote:Maybe there's something like that in the Heart of the Wild, and the fellowship might know about it before finding Mansbane.

This would be a wonderful outcome to a tragic set of events and I think very in keeping with LotR, although they may not have opportunity to find the place beforehand...

My current idea is to have them encounter the tower where the elf woman Ash is the leader of a group of refugees (ie, page 49 HotW). Now the players have met her previously, receiving a frosty reception from her, but they will have also recognised her as the elf woman Rodwen from their dream (she's presented as a LMC in "Those Who Tarry...") and they will be driven to the tower due to a raging and torrential storm - it is the storm that creates the furry within Mansbane and drives her to murder. This is also something that I'll introduce in the dream sequence as the orcs and men tormenting her will use crashing steel noises and drums etc to torment the poor creature.

If they can ease Mansbane's torment (serendipity will also mean the storm lulls or ends completely) the PCs could lead her into the deep of Mirkwood to find relative peace there. Although still a sad creature, lost to her kind, she would never trouble the lands of men again or herself be tormented by the violence of thunder and lightning.

I also have a long term idea that she could return to aid the heroes in an hour of need - perhaps if one of them rolled a G rune during their stand at the climax of Darkening of Mirkwood; an ancient creature would arrive to save or help them - the twinkling in her eyes revealing her true nature, restored in order to make one last stand against the Shadow. I quite like that; it makes me sad but also feels right. There's loss and sorrow associated to it, which seems to be in keeping with the tone of the campaign and Tolkien's work as a whole.

Corvo wrote:The Elves were the ones that taught the Ents to speak, and only later they developed their own language.

So the deepest memories of the (oldest) Ents are tied to elven language (Sindarin, probably).

So I think that an Elf can have an easier time calming the entwife. The Speakers virtue is another bonus, and a moment to shine for an hero that choose such un-warlike skill.

Lacking any Elf, I would rule that any Sindarin-speaker can have a bonus. I think that any Hero with the "Old Lore" trait knows Sindarin (it's the Latin of M-e).

Failing that, remember that in Tolkien's opus a gentle soul can succeed were even the Wises fail: I would keep an eye on the traits of the least-warlike heroes.

With any character, I suppose that Songs is the best skill to use

I agree with using Song. Saving, or at least calming, Mansbane feels a lot like the Heal Corruption undertaking so I'd like to go with that in some way.

Okay, reading all my brain storming above I think there's a key element here. What player (and by inference, their character) to place in the dream where they face the less corrupted (but still deadly) version of Mansbane? Of the original PCs I have, three spring to mind:

1) A Barding Scholar, learned in Old Lore and Rhymes of Lore. The player has never read any Tolkien (he actually dislikes it!) but he is pretty quick on the uptake. Perhaps he could play an elf in the dream sequence with The Speakers virtue and learn something there about Mansbane? His Barding isn't much of a singer though!

2) A Woodman Wanderer, not particularly learned but has a couple of dots in Song and it is favoured. My current thinking is that he could be gifted the item keyed to Song by Irime which he could use when the face Mansbane. He therefore wouldn't be the one facing the creature within the dream

3) A Beorning Warden, not particularly learned or gifted in Song BUT he does have Shadow Lore and is always mindful of it and the insidious workings of the enemy. Perhaps he'd realise what the Necromancer has done to this poor creature and knows how important it should be to try and save her?

I reckon the best way of involving all the players (and their characters in this) would be to have (1) face Mansbane within the dream and understand it is still dangerous but has been tormented and corrupted over time; this would be confirmed by (3) when they characters talk about their experiences within the dream after (hopefully) saving Irime. Discussing this and then facing Mansbane later, then (2) could help by using Irime's gift to him. That setup/approach feels pretty good as it is involving a number of the companions in the solution.

How to use Ash/Rodwen more in this tale? The PCs will recognise who she is now and it feels right that she be more involved in the resolution of this... The PCs and Mansbane have found her home and their fates appear to be entwined somehow?

Any suggestions or further ideas? And thanks in advance for staying the course!

Those are some good ideas. I guess my question--and I'm genuinely curious, not being critical, as I'm a much greener LM--is over the single path to success. How will you play this out without the players feeling like they are jumping through hoops?

Here are a couple of thoughts now that I'm grasping what you're after more:

1. What if there is a pretty high chance to fail? You're creating a fairly epic encounter, just physically/mechanically but also in terms of invoking some weighty lore. It would seem to me that soothing a tortured/enraged ent is pretty impossible. What if players can attempt tasks etc., but any success depends more on the will of the west--i.e. Gandalf runes--than anything else. This increases difficulty and takes things out of anybodies hands. You could stage (and probably are anyway) the interchange at the tower/fortress as an encounter, but successes would relate to Gandalfs. You'd need a couple of comprises at the ready (Ash or someone important is injured? Damage to the tower puts the refugees' encampment at stake? Orcs use the opportunity to attack?)---but if they really did succeed, it would feel more fated, less scripted.

Additionally, if they fail, Mansbane can return another time.

2. Perhaps the can learn more in the dream than just a particular way/song to calm her. What if from her description, or from use of Speakers/or other roles, whoever is in the dream sequence gets some kind of a clue as to where she hails from? I would imagine place is pretty powerful to an ent. Then your elf Ash could perhaps help them locate it, or provide information about it, or some elf old enough to remember Ents and something of the Ent language. Again, this is stretching things out and involving more mini adventures, which might not be what you want.

I guess my leaning, if you wanted to keep this short, would be to have them fail, perhaps with slight successes, rather than succeed. Having an enraged entwife escape and be somewhere at large in Mirkwood feels more at one with the sadness of the third age, and more in line with canon, than the heroes solving all the world's problems.

Anyway--hopefully it helps just having a sounding board if nothing else. I'm liking the thread of the story and characters that you're working out--keep us updated!

cuthalion wrote:Those are some good ideas. I guess my question--and I'm genuinely curious, not being critical, as I'm a much greener LM--is over the single path to success. How will you play this out without the players feeling like they are jumping through hoops?

When I'm plotting something out, in order to get an idea if it hangs together and makes sense as an idea/story, I work on the 'ideal outcome' first and then build in options, variations, and decision points afterwards. I don't know if others work in a different way but adding in those things to my above post may well have confused the discussion from where I really wanted to focus on the idea more than anything else and how it could hold together.

cuthalion wrote:1. What if there is a pretty high chance to fail? You're creating a fairly epic encounter, just physically/mechanically but also in terms of invoking some weighty lore. It would seem to me that soothing a tortured/enraged ent is pretty impossible. What if players can attempt tasks etc., but any success depends more on the will of the west--i.e. Gandalf runes--than anything else. This increases difficulty and takes things out of anybodies hands.

Failure in this is a perfectly okay outcome; well, beyond the obvious risk to life and limb which the PCs would like to avoid. My musings in my previous post were only to create a potential path to success or to make the battle/killing of Mansbane that much more poignant and tragic. It's likely that the PCs will not be able to calm Mansbane and may have to kill her in order to save themselves and other innocent lives. I don't have an issue with that as I do think success should be extremely difficult to achieve here, at least in one encounter, and due to the murderous nature of the creature the PCs may not have the luxury of further ones due to the danger it poses. It's going to be a difficult choice for them in this regard.

cuthalion wrote:You could stage (and probably are anyway) the interchange at the tower/fortress as an encounter, but successes would relate to Gandalfs. You'd need a couple of comprises at the ready (Ash or someone important is injured? Damage to the tower puts the refugees' encampment at stake? Orcs use the opportunity to attack?)---but if they really did succeed, it would feel more fated, less scripted.

My idea was for it to be a number of battles (or pauses within a larger battle) across the various areas/levels of the tower with potential quiet moments where the PCs could try and interact differently with Mansbane. They could also forego any attacks to try and calm the creature which would have a more positive effect as hurting it would mean it retaliates with violence. I mentioned a storm raging during the encounter, and it being one of the causes of Mansbane's fury, so my idea was that any G-runes rolled by the players would allow for a lull in the storm and opportunities to try and calm the creature - which would require numerous accrued successes. Rolling any EYEs would likely have opposite affects of the storm or put LMCs in jeopardy, etc.

cuthalion wrote:Additionally, if they fail, Mansbane can return another time.

This is a possibility but could likely mean they have left others to their deaths at the hands of the creature. Again, another tough/horrible decision for them to make.

cuthalion wrote:2. Perhaps the can learn more in the dream than just a particular way/song to calm her. What if from her description, or from use of Speakers/or other roles, whoever is in the dream sequence gets some kind of a clue as to where she hails from?

My idea, referred to previously, was to have one of the PCs face her in the dream sequence so they would see she obviously wasn't a troll of any kind and was some strange creature in appearance. As the player's character has Rhymes of Lore and Old Lore he'd be able to conclude (automatically) that she was an Ent or some kind of nature spirit. Additionally, he'd see her being provoked and tormented into fighting and also witness how the Orcs present were creating a storm-like noise to provoke and anger her. All of this would give the PCs information as to the potential origins of Mansbane and that she was being terrorised, tormented and corrupted. Again, giving the PCs a moral dynamic to either following the difficult route and attempting to heal her or accepting she is lost and dealing with what she has become.

cuthalion wrote:I would imagine place is pretty powerful to an ent. Then your elf Ash could perhaps help them locate it, or provide information about it, or some elf old enough to remember Ents and something of the Ent language. Again, this is stretching things out and involving more mini adventures, which might not be what you want.

I think as one of the PCs has 'Rhymes of Lore' and 'Old Lore' that information should be available to them. One trait, as per the RAW, would allow for a player to attempt a Lore test where the LM usually wouldn't allow for one but I think as the character has both traits then they should be given the info without a roll (ie, the second trait allows them to auto-succeed).

cuthalion wrote:I guess my leaning, if you wanted to keep this short, would be to have them fail, perhaps with slight successes, rather than succeed. Having an enraged entwife escape and be somewhere at large in Mirkwood feels more at one with the sadness of the third age, and more in line with canon, than the heroes solving all the world's problems.

They wouldn't solve it completely and bear in mind there are greater victories/solving of problems within adventures such as "Tales from Wilderland" to the one I'm presenting here (eg, foiling the plans of, and destroying, the Gibbet King) so I think it nestles easily within such outcomes. The Entwife, in the best of circumstances, would still be a lost soul and would not be re-integrated into 'society' of any kind. I previously mentioned, "Although still a sad creature, lost to her kind", that's what I meant there; the PCs at best could stop her from being this murderous monster and all they could hope for would be for her to become a sad and lonely creature, lost in the depths of Mirkwood where she would trouble the world of men no longer. To me, that feels far more fitting, the PCs have saved her to some degree and overcome the Shadow's intent of turning her into Mansbane but from such Corruption she can never return to her whole self and effectively lives in exile and isolation; this is therefore a small victory but tinged with great loss.

cuthalion wrote:Anyway--hopefully it helps just having a sounding board if nothing else. I'm liking the thread of the story and characters that you're working out--keep us updated!

No problem, will do. And thanks for taking the time to read and discuss.

Otaku-sempai wrote:I'm not sure I care for the idea of Mansbane as an Entwife

That's fine but can you respect how this thread has now evolved and appreciate where the discussion has headed and what it is now about. We're no longer talking about what it is. Thanks.