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Rich H wrote:That's fine but can you respect how this thread has now evolved and appreciate where the discussion has headed and what it is now about. We're no longer talking about what it is. Thanks.

That's all well and good, but I haven't had anything to add to the later discussion and I am not currently engaged in a TOR campaign as either Hero or Loremaster. I do wonder what became of my post though. It's not as if there was anything remotely controversial in it. It seems rude to delete it just for being boring.

Otaku-sempai wrote:

Rich H wrote:

Otaku-sempai wrote:That's fine but can you respect how this thread has now evolved and appreciate where the discussion has headed and what it is now about. We're no longer talking about what it is. Thanks.

That's all well and good, but I haven't had anything to add to the later discussion...

As the OP I don't think it's particularly polite to drag the thread back; you're effectively engaging in a form of light threadcrapping. I've previously requested for people to keep the thread on track, and I've politely asked you twice now, so really that means not posting if you have nothing to say that's useful to the current discussion. Thanks again.

Apologies for the repost, but a bit sick of the attempts to drag the thread back. If you can't engage with the current discussion at hand then please don't post but really appreciate those that are providing useful support for me - it's really helping! Thanks.

cuthalion wrote:Those are some good ideas. I guess my question--and I'm genuinely curious, not being critical, as I'm a much greener LM--is over the single path to success. How will you play this out without the players feeling like they are jumping through hoops?

When I'm plotting something out, in order to get an idea if it hangs together and makes sense as an idea/story, I work on the 'ideal outcome' first and then build in options, variations, and decision points afterwards. I don't know if others work in a different way but adding in those things to my above post may well have confused the discussion from where I really wanted to focus on the idea more than anything else and how it could hold together.

cuthalion wrote:1. What if there is a pretty high chance to fail? You're creating a fairly epic encounter, just physically/mechanically but also in terms of invoking some weighty lore. It would seem to me that soothing a tortured/enraged ent is pretty impossible. What if players can attempt tasks etc., but any success depends more on the will of the west--i.e. Gandalf runes--than anything else. This increases difficulty and takes things out of anybodies hands.

Failure in this is a perfectly okay outcome; well, beyond the obvious risk to life and limb which the PCs would like to avoid. My musings in my previous post were only to create a potential path to success or to make the battle/killing of Mansbane that much more poignant and tragic. It's likely that the PCs will not be able to calm Mansbane and may have to kill her in order to save themselves and other innocent lives. I don't have an issue with that as I do think success should be extremely difficult to achieve here, at least in one encounter, and due to the murderous nature of the creature the PCs may not have the luxury of further ones due to the danger it poses. It's going to be a difficult choice for them in this regard.

cuthalion wrote:You could stage (and probably are anyway) the interchange at the tower/fortress as an encounter, but successes would relate to Gandalfs. You'd need a couple of comprises at the ready (Ash or someone important is injured? Damage to the tower puts the refugees' encampment at stake? Orcs use the opportunity to attack?)---but if they really did succeed, it would feel more fated, less scripted.

My idea was for it to be a number of battles (or pauses within a larger battle) across the various areas/levels of the tower with potential quiet moments where the PCs could try and interact differently with Mansbane. They could also forego any attacks to try and calm the creature which would have a more positive effect as hurting it would mean it retaliates with violence. I mentioned a storm raging during the encounter, and it being one of the causes of Mansbane's fury, so my idea was that any G-runes rolled by the players would allow for a lull in the storm and opportunities to try and calm the creature - which would require numerous accrued successes. Rolling any EYEs would likely have opposite affects of the storm or put LMCs in jeopardy, etc.

cuthalion wrote:Additionally, if they fail, Mansbane can return another time.

This is a possibility but could likely mean they have left others to their deaths at the hands of the creature. Again, another tough/horrible decision for them to make.

cuthalion wrote:2. Perhaps the can learn more in the dream than just a particular way/song to calm her. What if from her description, or from use of Speakers/or other roles, whoever is in the dream sequence gets some kind of a clue as to where she hails from?

My idea, referred to previously, was to have one of the PCs face her in the dream sequence so they would see she obviously wasn't a troll of any kind and was some strange creature in appearance. As the player's character has Rhymes of Lore and Old Lore he'd be able to conclude (automatically) that she was an Ent or some kind of nature spirit. Additionally, he'd see her being provoked and tormented into fighting and also witness how the Orcs present were creating a storm-like noise to provoke and anger her. All of this would give the PCs information as to the potential origins of Mansbane and that she was being terrorised, tormented and corrupted. Again, giving the PCs a moral dynamic to either following the difficult route and attempting to heal her or accepting she is lost and dealing with what she has become.

cuthalion wrote:I would imagine place is pretty powerful to an ent. Then your elf Ash could perhaps help them locate it, or provide information about it, or some elf old enough to remember Ents and something of the Ent language. Again, this is stretching things out and involving more mini adventures, which might not be what you want.

I think as one of the PCs has 'Rhymes of Lore' and 'Old Lore' that information should be available to them. One trait, as per the RAW, would allow for a player to attempt a Lore test where the LM usually wouldn't allow for one but I think as the character has both traits then they should be given the info without a roll (ie, the second trait allows them to auto-succeed).

cuthalion wrote:I guess my leaning, if you wanted to keep this short, would be to have them fail, perhaps with slight successes, rather than succeed. Having an enraged entwife escape and be somewhere at large in Mirkwood feels more at one with the sadness of the third age, and more in line with canon, than the heroes solving all the world's problems.

They wouldn't solve it completely and bear in mind there are greater victories/solving of problems within adventures such as "Tales from Wilderland" to the one I'm presenting here (eg, foiling the plans of, and destroying, the Gibbet King) so I think it nestles easily within such outcomes. The Entwife, in the best of circumstances, would still be a lost soul and would not be re-integrated into 'society' of any kind. I previously mentioned, "Although still a sad creature, lost to her kind", that's what I meant there; the PCs at best could stop her from being this murderous monster and all they could hope for would be for her to become a sad and lonely creature, lost in the depths of Mirkwood where she would trouble the world of men no longer. To me, that feels far more fitting, the PCs have saved her to some degree and overcome the Shadow's intent of turning her into Mansbane but from such Corruption she can never return to her whole self and effectively lives in exile and isolation; this is therefore a small victory but tinged with great loss.

cuthalion wrote:Anyway--hopefully it helps just having a sounding board if nothing else. I'm liking the thread of the story and characters that you're working out--keep us updated!

No problem, will do. And thanks for taking the time to read and discuss.

Rich,

I was reading your talk with Cuthalion, and an idea struck me:
what if it's the Elf Ash that can soothe the Entwife?
She's the only one that talk -sing- to the Ent in the language of old. She's the one who endured the same pain and despair. She's the one that lost all the joy and love that permeate Middle-earth.
She's the one. If only there was a glimmer of hope left in her.

Thanks for this Corvo, appreciate the support.

Corvo wrote:Rich,

I was reading your talk with Cuthalion, and an idea struck me:
what if it's the Elf Ash that can soothe the Entwife?
She's the only one that talk -sing- to the Ent in the language of old. She's the one who endured the same pain and despair. She's the one that lost all the joy and love that permeate Middle-earth.
She's the one. If only there was a glimmer of hope left in her.

Strangely, I was thinking that and it makes complete sense. The thing that concerns me is that she's an LMC so wouldn't her involvement feel a bit deus ex machina? Any ideas how to avoid this both narratively and as part of the game mechanics, maybe? Perhaps using Bonus Success dice in some way to 'access her abilities' could be an option? Not sure...

EDIT: Okay, so maybe this bit you wrote "... If only there was a glimmer of hope left in her" could mean that the PCs engage with Ash/Rodwen to raise her hope and courage and this means she will help them in facing Mansbane. So, they are pretty much the driver for success and their ability to motivate Ash is still the key to success but the narrative out of that would be Ash soothing Mansbane. Does that make sense? Is that what you meant?

Rich H wrote:When I'm plotting something out, in order to get an idea if it hangs together and makes sense as an idea/story, I work on the 'ideal outcome' first and then build in options, variations, and decision points afterwards. I don't know if others work in a different way but adding in those things to my above post may well have confused the discussion from where I really wanted to focus on the idea more than anything else and how it could hold together.

Aaah--that makes sense, and I'm liking the variations/complexities that you're planning in.

Rich H wrote:My idea was for it to be a number of battles (or pauses within a larger battle) across the various areas/levels of the tower with potential quiet moments where the PCs could try and interact differently with Mansbane. They could also forego any attacks to try and calm the creature which would have a more positive effect as hurting it would mean it retaliates with violence. I mentioned a storm raging during the encounter, and it being one of the causes of Mansbane's fury, so my idea was that any G-runes rolled by the players would allow for a lull in the storm and opportunities to try and calm the creature - which would require numerous accrued successes. Rolling any EYEs would likely have opposite affects of the storm or put LMCs in jeopardy, etc.

^^ This is great. The image of the companions doing their best to figure out how to calm her inbetween bouts of battle really brought the scene together for me in my mind, and it feels pretty Tolkien-y. Nice thinking. I like the G-runes resulting in lulls in the storm, though would probably do my best to mask/stagger the relationship, which you're probably already planning. On the other hand, not so sure about the EYEs. I think this will make the whole thing a bit too contrived. But you're a better judge. Not sure if you're using EoS mechanics, but I would leave it to them to tip the balance over to some kind of revelation episode if thats the companions' fate.

Rich H wrote:All of this would give the PCs information as to the potential origins of Mansbane and that she was being terrorised, tormented and corrupted. Again, giving the PCs a moral dynamic to either following the difficult route and attempting to heal her or accepting she is lost and dealing with what she has become.

Sounds good. But what about her ~species, and the trees and plants that would have surrounded her? Maybe this would help in finding memories/spaces/sounds to calm her? I'm thinking:

'There were rowan-trees in my home,' said Bregalad, softly and sadly, 'rowan-trees that took root when I was an Enting, many many years ago in the quiet of the world. The oldest were planted by the Ents to try and please the Entwives; but they looked at them and smiled and said that they knew where whiter blossom and richer fruit were growing. Yet there are no trees of all that race, the people of the Rose, that are so beautiful to me. And these trees grew and grew, till the shadow of each was like a green hall, and their red berries in the autumn were a burden, and a beauty and a wonder. Birds used to flock there. I like birds, even when they chatter; and the rowan has enough and to spare. But the birds became unfriendly and greedy and tore at the trees, and threw the fruit down and did not eat it. Then Orcs came with axes and cut down my trees.

Perhaps the hero in the dream could hear the orcs taunting her about the trees of her home they have since defiled? Just throwing ideas out, but that's more what I was thinking could be added to the information that's available to be gleaned.

Rich H wrote:To me, that feels far more fitting, the PCs have saved her to some degree and overcome the Shadow's intent of turning her into Mansbane but from such Corruption she can never return to her whole self and effectively lives in exile and isolation; this is therefore a small victory but tinged with great loss.

Agreed, this sounds good. Hope this works out for you and the players. Could be a memorable session! And I admire your skills/ambition as an LM. Not sure I could manage it.

Rich H wrote:Thanks for this Corvo, appreciate the support.

Corvo wrote:Rich,

I was reading your talk with Cuthalion, and an idea struck me:
what if it's the Elf Ash that can soothe the Entwife?
She's the only one that talk -sing- to the Ent in the language of old. She's the one who endured the same pain and despair. She's the one that lost all the joy and love that permeate Middle-earth.
She's the one. If only there was a glimmer of hope left in her.

Strangely, I was thinking that and it makes complete sense. The thing that concerns me is that she's an LMC so wouldn't her involvement feel a bit deus ex machina? Any ideas how to avoid this both narratively and as part of the game mechanics, maybe? Perhaps using Bonus Success dice in some way to 'access her' could be an option? Not sure...

Ok . . . this is maybe more specific than you're looking for, but it certainly removes the deus ex machina problem. Mansbane's love was for the ash. When she seizes upon Ash somewhere in the middle of the battle, and somebody screams her name, perhaps even in a Sindarin equivalent or something, Mansbane stops mid rage, and looks at the broken creature in her hands, struggling to recall that name, those trees, that place and time. Cue time to Encounter.

Bit contrived probably. But there you go.

cuthalion wrote:Aaah--that makes sense, and I'm liking the variations/complexities that you're planning in.

Cool. Yep, still just working through how this will map out but I am short on time; I think this encounter could be happening as early as a couple of Fridays from now!

cuthalion wrote:

Rich H wrote:My idea was for it to be a number of battles (or pauses within a larger battle) across the various areas/levels of the tower with potential quiet moments where the PCs could try and interact differently with Mansbane. They could also forego any attacks to try and calm the creature which would have a more positive effect as hurting it would mean it retaliates with violence. I mentioned a storm raging during the encounter, and it being one of the causes of Mansbane's fury, so my idea was that any G-runes rolled by the players would allow for a lull in the storm and opportunities to try and calm the creature - which would require numerous accrued successes. Rolling any EYEs would likely have opposite affects of the storm or put LMCs in jeopardy, etc.

^^ This is great. The image of the companions doing their best to figure out how to calm her inbetween bouts of battle really brought the scene together for me in my mind, and it feels pretty Tolkien-y. Nice thinking. I like the G-runes resulting in lulls in the storm, though would probably do my best to mask/stagger the relationship, which you're probably already planning. On the other hand, not so sure about the EYEs. I think this will make the whole thing a bit too contrived. But you're a better judge. Not sure if you're using EoS mechanics, but I would leave it to them to tip the balance over to some kind of revelation episode if thats the companions' fate.

Cool. Just to be sure but what do you mean by "do my best to mask/stagger the relationship"? Sorry, not quite sure.

cuthalion wrote:But what about her ~species, and the trees and plants that would have surrounded her? Maybe this would help in finding memories/spaces/sounds to calm her? I'm thinking:

'There were rowan-trees in my home,' said Bregalad, softly and sadly, 'rowan-trees that took root when I was an Enting, many many years ago in the quiet of the world. The oldest were planted by the Ents to try and please the Entwives; but they looked at them and smiled and said that they knew where whiter blossom and richer fruit were growing. Yet there are no trees of all that race, the people of the Rose, that are so beautiful to me. And these trees grew and grew, till the shadow of each was like a green hall, and their red berries in the autumn were a burden, and a beauty and a wonder. Birds used to flock there. I like birds, even when they chatter; and the rowan has enough and to spare. But the birds became unfriendly and greedy and tore at the trees, and threw the fruit down and did not eat it. Then Orcs came with axes and cut down my trees.

Perhaps the hero in the dream could hear the orcs taunting her about the trees of her home they have since defiled? Just throwing ideas out, but that's more what I was thinking could be added to the information that's available to be gleaned.

Ah, that's really neat and works really well. I see what you mean. Perhaps mechanically these additional pieces of information could be gleaned depending on how many successes are obtained by the PC in question - eg, start with a basic amount of info even on a failed test and then increase the pieces of information (and expand/enrich the story) based on a standard, great, and extrordinary success.

cuthalion wrote:

Rich H wrote:To me, that feels far more fitting, the PCs have saved her to some degree and overcome the Shadow's intent of turning her into Mansbane but from such Corruption she can never return to her whole self and effectively lives in exile and isolation; this is therefore a small victory but tinged with great loss.

Agreed, this sounds good. Hope this works out for you and the players. Could be a memorable session! And I admire your skills/ambition as an LM. Not sure I could manage it.

I'm glad you like it but you guys are/have really helped in this so couldn't have got to this point without you!

cuthalion wrote:Ok . . . this is maybe more specific than you're looking for, but it certainly removes the deus ex machina problem. Mansbane's love was for the ash. When she seizes upon Ash somewhere in the middle of the battle, and somebody screams her name, perhaps even in a Sindarin equivalent or something, Mansbane stops mid rage, and looks at the broken creature in her hands, struggling to recall that name, those trees, that place and time. Cue time to Encounter.

Bit contrived probably. But there you go.

Nah, not sure. You missed my edit:

EDIT: Okay, so maybe this bit you wrote "... If only there was a glimmer of hope left in her" could mean that the PCs engage with Ash/Rodwen to raise her hope and courage and this means she will help them in facing Mansbane. So, they are pretty much the driver for success and their ability to motivate Ash is still the key to success but the narrative out of that would be Ash soothing Mansbane. Does that make sense? Is that what you meant?

Does this help? I think that would work and create another interesting dynamic. Perhaps Ash was also sent to the 'arena' to face Mansbane along with the PC? Maybe the PC actually saves her?

[quote="Rich H"]Thanks for this Corvo, appreciate the support.

[quote="Corvo"]Rich,

I was reading your talk with Cuthalion, and an idea struck me:
what if it's the Elf Ash that can soothe the Entwife?
She's the only one that talk -sing- to the Ent in the language of old. She's the one who endured the same pain and despair. She's the one that lost all the joy and love that permeate Middle-earth.
She's the one. If only there was a glimmer of hope left in her.[/quote]

Strangely, I was thinking that and it makes complete sense. The thing that concerns me is that she's an LMC so wouldn't her involvement feel a bit deus ex machina? Any ideas how to avoid this both narratively and as part of the game mechanics, maybe? Perhaps using Bonus Success dice in some way to 'access her abilities' could be an option? Not sure...

EDIT: Okay, so maybe this bit you wrote "... If only there was a glimmer of hope left in her" could mean that the PCs engage with Ash/Rodwen to raise her hope and courage and this means she will help them in facing Mansbane. So, they are pretty much the driver for success and their ability to motivate Ash is still the key to success but the narrative out of that would be Ash soothing Mansbane. Does that make sense? Is that what you meant?[/quote]

Going from memory, Beornings got high Insight. Maybe the PCs can get to understand that Ash knows the terrible beast (maybe from the Elf's reluctance to fight the monster): the point of the adventure would be to persuade the traumatized Elf to try and talk to the creature. To sing another time, like she ceased to do many years ago.
Maybe she was forced to sing, to sing for the pleasure of her captors while they engaged in horrible things. And she wives to never sing again, cause she cannot endure anymore these terrible images...
(I'm writing as the thoughts came in my mind, so forgive the rambling tone).
There is a weak link to the way the High Elves mark off their skills to shed shadow points, btw