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We wrote past each other :p

Somehow, my post included your edit even if it wasn't there when I was writing.
So, yes, you got it right

Corvo wrote:Going from memory, Beornings got high Insight. Maybe the PCs can get to understand that Ash knows the terrible beast (maybe from the Elf's reluctance to fight the monster): the point of the adventure would be to persuade the traumatized Elf to try and talk to the creature. To sing another time, like she ceased to do many years ago.

Maybe she was forced to sing, to sing for the pleasure of her captors while they engaged in horrible things. And she wives to never sing again, cause she cannot endure anymore these terrible images...

(I'm writing as the thoughts came in my mind, so forgive the rambling tone).

There is a weak link to the way the High Elves mark off their skills to shed shadow points, btw

Ooooh, maybe someone in Dol Guldur (the Sorceress of Mirkwood, perhaps) used Ash to sing to the Entwife/Mansbane but perverted her Song in order to corrupt the creature? And so, by convincing Ash, her Song has the power to undo at least some of the damage it first caused. Not wholly, for her torment was over many years but just enough to heal her of the wanton destruction/violence by calming her mind somewhat?

Corvo wrote:We wrote past each other :p

Somehow, my post included your edit even if it wasn't there when I was writing.
So, yes, you got it right

And we did it again! See my post above!

Rich H wrote:

Corvo wrote:Going from memory, Beornings got high Insight. Maybe the PCs can get to understand that Ash knows the terrible beast (maybe from the Elf's reluctance to fight the monster): the point of the adventure would be to persuade the traumatized Elf to try and talk to the creature. To sing another time, like she ceased to do many years ago.

Maybe she was forced to sing, to sing for the pleasure of her captors while they engaged in horrible things. And she wives to never sing again, cause she cannot endure anymore these terrible images...

(I'm writing as the thoughts came in my mind, so forgive the rambling tone).

There is a weak link to the way the High Elves mark off their skills to shed shadow points, btw

Ooooh, maybe someone in Dol Guldur (the Sorceress of Mirkwood, perhaps) used Ash to sing to the Entwife/Mansbane but perverted her Song in order to corrupt the creature? And so, by convincing Ash, her Song has the power to undo at least some of the damage it first caused. Not wholly, for her torment was over many years but just enough to heal the wanton destruction and violence?

If you went with something along these lines, Ash could have been taken from the same woods, and so know how to lead Mansbane back home.

Rich H wrote:Cool. Just to be sure but what do you mean by "do my best to mask/stagger the relationship"? Sorry, not quite sure.

Just that, like journey hazards don't necessarily come right after an eye is rolled, it'll be more contrived/harder on you as the storyteller to transition if you literally try to calm the storm and go to encounter everytime someone rolls a Gandalf. Maybe keep a tally and after a limit (2? 3? 4?) has been reached offer an encounter. Small sections of description could accompany each Gandalf.

Probably just me over thinking things.

Seems like you're on the way anyway--best of luck.

Another bit of rambling, Rich. Make what you want of it

About the previous experience of Ash with the Ent I would avoid something direct like a fight in the arena, to emphasize the empathic nature of the Elves and of the Ent.
To make a pop reference... Do you remember "V for Vendetta"? The protagonist is in jail, despaired, and she find a way to talk to another prisoner. And the bonding among the two is tragic and moving, especially when one of the two is taken to her death.
Now, think it in M-e's terms: centuries of captivity, at the hand of a dark god, bent on destroying what is beautiful and worthy in the world.
Ash and the Ent sustained each other, and the Necromancer watched all of it, savoring their despair.
How many times they rescued each other from the pit of madness? For how many years the Elf watched her friend slip into despair and lunacy?
And how many times had her singing brought her back in the world?
Because their captor would let her save her friend. To ruin her another time, and another and another...
In the end, Ash lost all her hope, and only prayed for the end for her friend. Death, forgetfulness, anything but coming back yet another time to remember what happened to her, what became of her.
This is "losing any hope".
Can the Heroes find a glimmer of hope in her?

cuthalion wrote:

Rich H wrote:Ooooh, maybe someone in Dol Guldur (the Sorceress of Mirkwood, perhaps) used Ash to sing to the Entwife/Mansbane but perverted her Song in order to corrupt the creature? And so, by convincing Ash, her Song has the power to undo at least some of the damage it first caused. Not wholly, for her torment was over many years but just enough to heal the wanton destruction and violence?

If you went with something along these lines, Ash could have been taken from the same woods, and so know how to lead Mansbane back home.

That's a great idea. Perhaps move Ash/Rodwen to already be a captive in Dol Guldur and the PC when facing Mansbane spots her being tormented/forced into singing the corrupted song. This also completely supports the description of Ash in tHotW:

She endured centuries of torment in the pits of Dol Guldur — she was captured by the Enemy uncounted years
ago, long before the Watchful Peace, to wring a precious secret out of her. Now, it is in the power of the Elves to
perish when faced with terrible torment, for they shall be reborn in the Undying Lands. Ash chose to remain — out of love for the wild lands, or out of pride, none can say.

So, she has waited to help heal the hurt she caused but now cannot find the courage to do so - this is where and why the PCs are still absolutely critical to aiding her and Mansbane; it is they who convince her.

cuthalion wrote:Just that, like journey hazards don't necessarily come right after an eye is rolled, it'll be more contrived/harder on you as the storyteller to transition if you literally try to calm the storm and go to encounter everytime someone rolls a Gandalf. Maybe keep a tally and after a limit (2? 3? 4?) has been reached offer an encounter. Small sections of description could accompany each Gandalf.

Probably just me over thinking things.

No, not at all. That sounds good; perhaps each Gandalf-rune provides and additional chance to roll to convince Ash to sing. The battle occurs for a set number of rounds, then the storm lulls and this calms Mansbane enough for the PCs to escape and based on those G-runes an amount of time to convince Ash. As they are pursuading her, Mansbane tracks them down (they escaped a short distance because the lull in the storm distracted and confused her) and it is the successes obtained in inspiring Ash that provides a bonus to a roll on the Feat Die - the higher the result, the more Mansbane is healed.

Does that sound like it works - it means Ash is the agent but the PCs are very much the driving force?

cuthalion wrote:Seems like you're on the way anyway--best of luck.

I feel like between the three of us we've really got to a good place! Any other ideas/suggestions?

Corvo wrote:Another bit of rambling, Rich. Make what you want of it

About the previous experience of Ash with the Ent I would avoid something direct like a fight in the arena, to emphasize the empathic nature of the Elves and of the Ent.
To make a pop reference... Do you remember "V for Vendetta"? The protagonist is in jail, despaired, and she find a way to talk to another prisoner. And the bonding among the two is tragic and moving, especially when one of the two is taken to her death.

I agree. I think my last post in reply to Cuthalion again crossed with yours here... Although I've approached it there in a different way than you suggest here.

Corvo wrote:Now, think it in M-e's terms: centuries of captivity, at the hand of a dark god, bent on destroying what is beautiful and worthy in the world.

Ash and the Ent sustained each other, and the Necromancer watched all of it, savoring their despair.
How many times they rescued each other from the pit of madness? For how many years the Elf watched her friend slip into despair and lunacy?

And how many times had her singing brought her back in the world?

Because their captor would let her save her friend. To ruin her another time, and another and another...
In the end, Ash lost all her hope, and only prayed for the end for her friend. Death, forgetfulness, anything but coming back yet another time to remember what happened to her, what became of her.

This is "losing any hope".

Can the Heroes find a glimmer of hope in her?

I like that too. Just as much as my idea of the Sorceress of Mirkwood (vastly underused in Darkening campaigns) corrupting Ash's song. I suppose, if we went with your suggestion above, how would you provide the PCs (during the dream/flashback) with insight into this? My option shows Ash being used to torment Mansbane.

Hmmmm...

Perhaps both our ideas could work together? Why can't Ash's power be used to corrupt the creature but they still are captives tormented together? I think that would actually work.

What do you think?

Hi Rich!

Sorry for the delay: I got a wild night out in town with my son (5 y.o.).
Back to topic, I see a fundamental difference between the two ideas, ie songs used to corrupt the Ent vs songs used to bring back from madness the Ent: in the first instance it's easier to persuade Ash to use her connection to the creature and her songs (she's full of guilt, she can heal some of the pain she was forced to inflict).
In the second instance it's harder to persuade her: she thinks that "healing" the beast will only torment the poor creature further.
Here I think it's a matter of campaign's tone and personal preference.

About the Sorceress... I feel your pain: it's an interesting character, but it's difficult to have her play a significant role in DOM. I tried, but the story keep sidelining her

Corvo wrote:Hi Rich!

Sorry for the delay: I got a wild night out in town with my son (5 y.o.).

Heh, heh... Sounds epic!

Corvo wrote:Back to topic, I see a fundamental difference between the two ideas, ie songs used to corrupt the Ent vs songs used to bring back from madness the Ent: in the first instance it's easier to persuade Ash to use her connection to the creature and her songs (she's full of guilt, she can heal some of the pain she was forced to inflict).

In the second instance it's harder to persuade her: she thinks that "healing" the beast will only torment the poor creature further.

Here I think it's a matter of campaign's tone and personal preference.

I think the two could be combined though; in the past her Song, through the Sorceress, was used to corrupt the Entwife but in the present day it will be used, through the PCs inspiration, to heal Mansbane. I thinks that'd work really well with the past informing the present?

Corvo wrote:About the Sorceress... I feel your pain: it's an interesting character, but it's difficult to have her play a significant role in DOM. I tried, but the story keep sidelining her

Yeah, I've introduced her just last session to explain the absense of a PC (ie, one of the players couldn't make the game anymore). I had his elf captured by her - made it all very perilous and Arthurian. I'd like to use her more though - she's a really interesting character. I've been wondering whether the plot of Valdis could be used by her instead.

I now need to go paint my Ent miniature.

Rich,

when I wrote " I see a fundamental difference between the two ideas" I should have written instead:
" I see ONLY a fundamental difference between the two ideas"
I think the two ideas are very similar and easy to mix: they differ only in the "ideal solution" (the same solution, really, just easier or harder to achieve).

About the Sorceress-Valdis swap, I will think about it. Effectively, Valdis looks a weak excuse for such a grandiose plot. Even more, I will think about some Arthurian inspiration for the Sorceress: it would be interesting to put some more ambiguity into her. We got our Mordred, maybe we can have our Morgana...