Evil races in Middle Earth

[Stormcrow]

Now that you mention it, that book links marsh-ogres with giants. On the other hand, it makes hobgoblins into a subspecies separate from uruk-hai, instead of just the English translation of uruk-hai, which is what I think Tolkien had in mind.

[Otaku-sempai]

Is there a problem with the existing Marsh Ogre stats in the Laketown supplement? It just seems strange to me that people are discussing adding them to the game when they already appear in an official supplement.

Genuine question here, there may be something I'm missing.

The Marsh-ogre is only one, specialized example, and those who do not possess the Lake-town supplement may be unfamiliar with it (I had trouble finding the creature myself).

Now that you mention it, that book links marsh-ogres with giants. On the other hand, it makes hobgoblins into a subspecies separate from uruk-hai, instead of just the English translation of uruk-hai, which is what I think Tolkien had in mind.

We can't be sure of a direct connection between 'hobgoblins' and 'Uruk-hai'. Tolkien had not even conceived of a sequel to The Hobbit when it was first published, so he had not yet developed the idea of the Uruk-hai.

[Stormcrow]

We can't be sure of a direct connection between 'hobgoblins' and 'Uruk-hai'.

No indeed. Good thing I didn't suggest we could be.

Tolkien had not even conceived of a sequel to The Hobbit when it was first published, so he had not yet developed the idea of the Uruk-hai.

But he was clearly thinking about varieties of orcs from the beginning. In a letter he said that hobgoblins are a larger sort of orc, and when he invented the Uruk-hai he made them a larger sort of orc. I think, without evidence, that he was thinking of his use of hobgoblin when he came up with the Uruk-hai. Tolkien was fond of giving in-universe explanations of folklore elements.

[Tolwen]

But he was clearly thinking about varieties of orcs from the beginning. In a letter he said that hobgoblins are a larger sort of orc, and when he invented the Uruk-hai he made them a larger sort of orc. I think, without evidence, that he was thinking of his use of hobgoblin when he came up with the Uruk-hai. Tolkien was fond of giving in-universe explanations of folklore elements.

In the story of the Disaster at the Gladden Fields (UT) Tolkien describes different varieties of orcs that are present on the battlefield. Among these are "great orcs" and "grim servants from Mordor" that were sent to stiffen and lead the orcs from the mountains. Their description is already a bit reminiscent of the later Uruk-hai. Overall there is some evidence for several specialised varieties of orcs already in the Second (and perhaps the First) Age. In the context of the battle of the Gladden Fields, these "great orcs" were used as shock troops against the powerful Dúnedain and suffered extremely high casualties in consequence.
He continues that these high casualties of "great orcs" prevented them (the orcs of the mountains) of attempting similar raids or campaigns for long years to come. However, in reverse this implies that they eventually did - when the number of "great orcs" had recovered sufficiently.
So, the existence of powerful big orcs that might qualify as such "hobgoblins" is perfectly in line (IMHO) with Tolkien's descriptions. The single attribute that differentiated the later Uruk-hai from all previously existing varities was not their size, but their size (as said - such existed previously) plus their imperviousness to sunlight. This latter was - IIRC - the real "innovation" of the Uruk-hai in comparison to their older cousins.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Otaku-sempai]

No indeed. Good thing I didn't suggest we could be.

Not definitively, but you did suggest the idea:

it makes hobgoblins into a subspecies separate from uruk-hai, instead of just the English translation of uruk-hai, which is what I think Tolkien had in mind.

I don't think that we are wholly in disagreement; it's at least possible that Tolkien equated the Uruk-hai with the earlier hobgoblins, I just have greater doubts about it. the only fact we have is that the two are treated differently in-game.

[Falenthal]

Do I hear Tolwen coming our way?

...and here we go!!!!

[Majestic]

Where do you get that about PJ's team? I worked on Decipher's CCG (which had very strict approvals process) during it's entire run, and I don't remember there being any Ogres.

That comes from Weta's Hobbit Chronicles books, specifically the two covering The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies. To be fair, the Art & Design book only places Ogres as a class of creatures somewhere between Orcs and Trolls. Neither does the Art of War volume specifically call them a hybrid of Orc and Troll, so you can take my assertion with at least a grain or two of salt.

Ah, gotcha. No worries at all. I've got lots of the extra books for LotR, but not for The Hobbit. Interesting info!