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So one question came up last session, about using Traits for Fatigue checks.

Could a player invoke, say, Hardy for a Fatigue check (Travel skill)? If yes, what then stops a player from invoking the trait on every travel check for, say, a hard journey trough Mirkwood?

-E.

This has come up before - traits can only be invoked where there are no significant ramifications of a failure. In the case of travelling they can't be used because there is the risk of a hazard, fatigue loss etc.

Ok, that makes sense. But what about Advancement Points gained from Traits?

Might need to read through the core book again, it seems.

E.

mica wrote:This has come up before - traits can only be invoked where there are no significant ramifications of a failure. In the case of travelling they can't be used because there is the risk of a hazard, fatigue loss etc.

This is not correct. Traits can be invoked whenever they are appropriate. One reason to invoke an automatic success is to get past a situation where there is no significance to failure, but that's not a requirement.

It is a common attitude around here to say that invoking automatic successes repeatedly with the same trait somehow cheapens the trait or the game experience, and those people make a house-rule that you can't do that. But, by the book, there's no reason you can't, for instance, invoke Hardy to gain an automatic success on every Fatigue test during a journey. I would argue that that's exactly what being "hardy" means.

(If an action has no significant chance of failure, the Loremaster really shouldn't be calling for a roll anyway.)

There are several ideas and ways to approach this, as has been seen in previous threads.

I'd say that the main 3 options are:

1) Allow the use of a Trati only once per Scene. What's a "Scene"? It's not tightly defined, but it can be considered the whole of a Journey, Encounter or Combat. The LM can consider whatever other moment during the adventure as a Scene.
This way a player can't be Hardy several times during the same Journey, or Fair-spoken several times during the same Encounter. This approach also allows to use different but related Traits: someone with Old-lore and Rhymes of Lore can use each Trait once during the same Encounter, for example.

2) Allow the use of Traits whenever it is approved by the LM, following his interpretation of the RAW. Not being allowed to gain APs is considered a consequence itself.

3) [My own way of playing it, and probably just an intent of defining point 2)]

Revised Edition, page 93 wrote:Automatic Action
When a player is using one of his Common skills to make a roll, he may invoke a Trait possessed by his hero to ensure a successful performance.
If the Trait considered for the action is agreed to be relevant, the Loremaster may allow the acting player to core an automatic success without even rolling the dice. When a player invokes a Trait to get an automatic success he is considered to have unspectacularly achieved his goal: an ordinary success.
The Loremaster may agree with a Trait invocation to speed up play, especially if failing at the roll would not lead to dramatically relevant consequences, or if the action wasn’t difficult. In some occasions, the Loremaster may ask his players whether they possess a pertinent Trait, in order to move the story on.

I assume you could read the bolded part the other way round: The Loremaster MAY NOT agree for an autosucces if failing a roll would lead to dramatically relevant consequences [Can gaining Travel Fatigue and triggering Hazards be considered "relevant consequences"? Personally, I think so. ], or the action was difficult [In my book, if the TN is higher than 14].

Even though I'm one of these people...

Stormcrow wrote: It is a common attitude around here to say that invoking automatic successes repeatedly with the same trait somehow cheapens the trait or the game experience, and those people make a house-rule that you can't do that.

Stormcrow is correct going by the RAW:

Stormcrow wrote:... there's no reason you can't, for instance, invoke Hardy to gain an automatic success on every Fatigue test during a journey. I would argue that that's exactly what being "hardy" means.

(If an action has no significant chance of failure, the Loremaster really shouldn't be calling for a roll anyway.)

And I particularly agree on this last bit which is why I've changed my mind over the years of running this game.

This problem only really occurs with the journey mechanics and that is, perhaps, a failure of that subset of the rules rather than a failure of the rules surrounding invocation of traits on the whole. If there were more degrees of success associated with a fatigue test then this wouldn't be an issue - ie, an invoked Hardy trait would only give an ordinary success.

The RAW, with regard to the journey mechanics, effectively creates a trait tax (ie, every character will likely end up swapping in Hardy for a less well used trait) in order to avoid getting fatigue and the loss of an AP check, by attempting the travel roll, here and there isn't an issue as these can easily be made up for in other tests/tasks. Therefore, what really should be addressed is the lack of importance in great/extraordinary successes on travel/fatigue tests. If there was greater granularity within the results then the issue with things like the Hardy trait that exist for many would go away. And it's why I've adopted such a house rule.

Rich H wrote: This problem only really occurs with the journey mechanics and that is, perhaps, a failure of that subset of the rules rather than a failure of the rules surrounding invocation of traits on the whole.

While I agree that Journeys is the situation where this mostly comes out, I'd add that Encounters can be, AFAIK, equally exploited by Traits.

I can't see anywhere that a hero can't use the same skill several times during the same Encounter, and therefore also use the same Trait, to repeteadly add Successes to the outcome. Fortunately, my players are not of that kind, but it could be the case. A single spokesman with Fair Spoken, for example, could use Courtesy and Persuade repeteadly (including Introduction) until reaching the 7th success without a single failure.

Not exactly the same though is it? Fatigue tests just work off of the Travel skill whereas Encounters have numerous and context sensitive skills that could get used and not every trait really corresponds to every one of those skills unless you have a player that's extremely creative. And also, there's mechanical difference within an Encounter with regards to ordinary, great and extraordinary successes which naturally drives players to roll for their actions rather than invoke a trait. So, I see some potential for repetition but it isn't the same as fatigue tests.

Just checked this with Francesco and his feeling is that Hardy cannot be used to auto-pass Travel tests.

While I hesitate to argue with the 'founder of the feast', it occurs to me that the description of the Hardy Trait applied alongside the Trait usage rules for Automatic Success seem to indicate otherwise. (?)