Spears

[James Harrison]

Spears, I think, seem to get a little bit of dislike... the problem is if you want to use them for an opening volley they are encumbrance 2 - which is a lot to heft around for one attack...characters looking for a backup range weapon are more likely to master a bow: one less encumbrance potentially multiple attacks.

So a bow seems a much better choice for an opening volley weapon than a spear: if this reasoning is correct perhaps the spear needs a boost?

My idea for a houserule is that if you loose a spear in an opening volley you lower your fatigue by 1 (much like taking off a helmet) - this makes a secondary spear an attractive option (It then effectively "weighs" as much as a bow without outshining sword or shortsword)

Thoughts? I might be off the mark on this, but from peoples comments I think this would be a useful rule.

[Corvo]

For the same reasons you explained, I houseruled spears to have encumbrance 1.
And for the same reason I think the Spear of King Bladorthin reward is... well, meh.

They are still an unpopular choice among my players.

[Elmoth]

I have run the numbers recently, and it seems that despite what you are saying, spears are one of the best (if not the best) one handed weapon in the game. They the most likely one handed weapon around for causing wounding hits, beating sword by 2% (15% vs 13%) against enemies with 2D armor; they tie at 3D armor and sword have a slight edge against 4D armor, but then we are looking at only 2% and 3% chances of causing a penetrating hit anyway. For shooting they also beat a bow and great bow in causing real injury. A one handed keen spear has almost 20% chance of causing penetrating damage (after armor roll) in each attack if the enemy has 2D armor (quite the usual thing).

Spears are better at causing massive (injury) damage than all the other regular weapons in the game except the great spear and the mattock. If you can chose a sword, an axe (both one handed and 2 handed) or a spear, I would recommend the one handed spear at all times. For regular damage other (2 handed) weapons are better, but then in that category the great spear wins hands down all other weapon options as well. Only the mattock keeps somewhat up (and has an edge against really armoured foes, but the spear is better if the enemy has 3D armor or worse).

I would not say that spears are weak. Not at all. If I can chose between a spear and a sword, I will take a spear any day of the week if my weapon skill is identical for both.

[Angelalex242]

Well, a Great Spear is probably going to be Keened, and Fell besides. Elves could make it bitter, and Beornings could make it Giant Slaying. Everyone else will make it Grievous.

Base Damage 11+Edge 8+Injury 18 ain't bad. Beornings can make base damage 15 vs. large creatures, elves can make injury 22 on a rune.

[Corvo]

I have run the numbers recently, and it seems that despite what you are saying, spears are one of the best (if not the best) one handed weapon in the game. They the most likely one handed weapon around for causing wounding hits, beating sword by 2% (15% vs 13%) against enemies with 2D armor; they tie at 3D armor and sword have a slight edge against 4D armor, but then we are looking at only 2% and 3% chances of causing a penetrating hit anyway.
(...)

Thank you for running these numbers Elmoth
I'm a mediocre mathematician and that whole "1/12 auto success" thing always give me an headache

Glad to know that the spear is so a good weapon in TOR: it's a weapon usually understimated in RPGs.

[Elmoth]

Basically all weapons are quite balanced. IMO the most balanced weapon of them all is the mattock, but spears are very good as both one handed and 2 handed weapons. The least good weapon is the longhafter axe of the woodmen, noit by herself, but because woodmen have really shitty Body totals, so their good hits do not count as much as a bardling or a laketown man hitting with a hand weapon

Probabilities of achieving a critical hit with a successful attack against different types of armor (2D, 1D+4, 3D, 4D):

Weapon 2D 1D+4 3D 4D
Orc weapon 7% 6% 3% 1%
Dagger 3% 3% 1% 1%
Spear 15% 13% 8% 2%
Short Sword10% 8% 6% 1%
Sword 13% 11% 8% 3%
Axe 8% 8% 6% 3%
Long Sword 13% 11% 8% 3%
Long h. Axe 8% 8% 6% 3%
Mattock 15% 15% 11% 6%
Great Spear 19% 17% 13% 4%
Great Axe 8% 8% 8% 4%
Bow 10% 8% 6% 1%
Great Bow 13% 11% 8% 3%

Keen spear 19% 17% 11% 3%
Keen sword 19% 17% 13% 4%
Cruel sword 15% 15% 11% 6%
Cruel spear 13% 11% 8% 3%
Spear keen + cruel 25% 22% 17% 6%
Sword keen + cruel 23% 23% 17% 8%


Format went to hell, but you get the rough numbers. If you quote my message you should get the numbers in a more readable layout.

Cheers,
Xavi

[Angelalex242]

I take it by cruel you mean fell?

Can you give me the numbers for a keen fell longsword? (Edge 9, Injury 20)

And for giggles:The numbers for a Great Spear (Keen, Fell, Bitter (elven quality that's +4 injury on a rune only)) Edge 8, Injury 18 or 22 on a G rune.

[Elmoth]

Might be. Working on the spanish version of the game, so you are probably right

Keen, fell, Longsword 23% 23% 23% 13%
It basically rips though anything but the 4D armor if it scores a penetrating hit. Fair chances of scoring crippling hits.

Spear: 31% 31% 24% 10%

[Corvo]

Might be. Working on the spanish version of the game, so you are probably right

Keen, fell, Longsword 23% 23% 23% 13%
It basically rips though anything but the 4D armor if it scores a penetrating hit. Fair chances of scoring crippling hits.

Spear: 31% 31% 24% 10%

The Longsword... 1h or 2h here? In your table you reported the stats for 1h, ie the same as a normal sword (2h the stats are the same as a mattock, by the way)

[Elmoth]

both the longsword and the longshaft axe are one handed in the original table. They are equal to the mattock and great axe when 2 handed.

For the second post I just ran the numbers that angelalex242 gave me