The Ithil Stone

[zedturtle]

Yeah, but it's a very interesting explanation... it sort of explains things, as Falenthal says.

Eärnur is captured by Sauron and broken so that he unlocks the stone of Minas Ithil. I have a vision of him crouched, holding the stone up with both hands, in a terrible place between death and life, for he is not allowed to die as Sauron needs the palantír fully operational.

When Saruman dares to look into the palantir of Orthanc, he cannot wrest control away from Sauron. He cannot 'hack' it, in either sense of the word. He has no rights.

When Denethor uses the stone of Minas Tirith, he has the right to use the stone (at least as an operator), and thus can take control away from Sauron, at least briefly. Sauron eventually figures it out, and restricts what Denethor can see somehow.

Pippin, of course, has no right. He sees only Sauron.

Aragorn, of course, is a superuser. He takes the palantíri system away from Sauron (probably granting Eärnur final rest in the process) and makes Sauron fret.

— • —

Of course, I don't really subscribe to the above theory. My personal preference is to go for something akin to the 'theory of awesome' and say "What fits within the framework of the source material but is the most gameable option?" And, of course, that the palantíri can be controlled by someone of sufficient willpower, and that if the Ithil-stone is in Sauron's control he will try to corrupt and control anyone else on the network is the most interesting way to interpret things, because it allows a hero that is given the chance to use a seeing stone to have a chance of doing something heroic with it, and that's what it's all about.

[Otaku-sempai]

The Tale of Years says for TA 2953, that "Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it."

You're right, I got the year wrong. We don't have much detail about how Saruman gained full control of Isengard, but it doesn't seem that he was opposed when he took it for his own, especially if he was regularly seen in Minas Tirith in subsequent years.

[Falenthal]

Eärnur is captured by Sauron and broken so that he unlocks the stone of Minas Ithil. I have a vision of him crouched, holding the stone up with both hands, in a terrible place between death and life, for he is not allowed to die as Sauron needs the palantír fully operational.

...

Aragorn, of course, is a superuser. He takes the palantíri system away from Sauron (probably granting Eärnur final rest in the process) and makes Sauron fret.

Wow, that theory is terrifying and amazing. Eärnur's image of being barely kept alive for the sole purpouse of holding the palantir, maybe even being used as a "human table" or stand for the stone as a mockery. Not really fit to Tolkien's world, I have to say, but very H.R. Giger.

[Terisonen]

I don't know if the basic premise presented here is true. However, it is entirely possible that when King Eärnur answered the challenge of the Witch-king in TA 2050, he was not immediately slain, but captured and tortured, perhaps with a Morgul-blade and transformed into a Fell Wraith. After that it might have been a simple task to secure his cooperation with the use of the palantír.

A good question (and a possible further unknown variable) would be whether such a "grant" of authority under duress would count as "rightful" for the stone. It probably depends on the type of magical "construction", i.e. whether a pure "technical" grant would be OK, or a "genuine" (voluntary) grant is required. In other magical contexts we see that such a distinction could be important.

Cheers
Tolwen

There are other example, when Sauron take the ring of Thain II in Dol Guldur. Why Thrain II still have his map and key of Erebor when Gandalf meet him in Dol Guldur? And why he had to be tortured to relinquish his ring? More question than answer...

[Glorelendil]

I would simply interpret it that using a Palantir...and influencing other Palantir from afar at the same time...requires both skill (experience) and strength of will, but that heirs of Elendil are exceptionally gifted at it. It's the simplest explanation that fits the data.

However I agree with Zed about the theory of awesome: if there's an explanation that also fits all the data AND makes for a better story, I choose that.

[Mando]

About the bloodline of Elendil, are there other branches apart from the main one down to Aragorn ? Like uncles, cousins or whatnot in previous generations ?

[cuthalion]

Assuming you have read through Appendix A to LoTR? I'm not sure you're going to find an answer there, but a jumping off point perhaps. Pretty sure Tolkien only really detailed the succession of the Northern Line, but my lore isn't very deep. Anyone else?

[Elmoth]

There are other example, when Sauron take the ring of Thain II in Dol Guldur. Why Thrain II still have his map and key of Erebor when Gandalf meet him in Dol Guldur? And why he had to be tortured to relinquish his ring? More question than answer...

Abot Thrain II I always assumed that he got the key and map on purpose to ensure the destruction of the Longbeard royal family since they would try to recover the mountain for sure, being dwarves and all. A mad dream orchestrated by the necromancer through a red herring. After all, they were going against Smaug. Only that a barefoot short guy happened to be somehow recruited and messed things up a little bit... And Bard got one of those once-in-a-lifteme shots and dropped the serpent.

I really like the Earnur theory. well done!

[Otaku-sempai]

Abot Thrain II I always assumed that he got the key and map on purpose to ensure the destruction of the Longbeard royal family since they would try to recover the mountain for sure, being dwarves and all. A mad dream orchestrated by the necromancer through a red herring. After all, they were going against Smaug. Only that a barefoot short guy happened to be somehow recruited and messed things up a little bit... And Bard got one of those once-in-a-lifteme shots and dropped the serpent.

I really like the Earnur theory. well done!

The portion of the message that you quote was from Terisonen, not me. My own assumption is that once Sauron acquired the Ring, he had no further interest in anything else on Thrain's person, so long as he was disarmed, making it relatively easy for the Dwarf to keep the map and key a secret.

As for King Eärnur, though: I like the possibility that he was turned into a Wraith because it's more interesting from a Loremaster's perspective than simply torturing him to death.

[Corvo]

Abot Thrain II I always assumed that he got the key and map on purpose to ensure the destruction of the Longbeard royal family since they would try to recover the mountain for sure, being dwarves and all. A mad dream orchestrated by the necromancer through a red herring. After all, they were going against Smaug. Only that a barefoot short guy happened to be somehow recruited and messed things up a little bit... And Bard got one of those once-in-a-lifteme shots and dropped the serpent.

I really like the Earnur theory. well done!

I think it's a really nice explanation for an obscure point. The Dark Lord defeated by his own machinations. Very much Tolkien's.
I think I'll use it