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In the BGG forum about the War of the Ring game, Irishwarrior123 posted this:

Did you know the only way that Sauron could use the Ithil Stone Palantir, after the fall of Minas Ithil (Minas Morgul), was to have permission to use it from an heir of Isuldur? How did he get it? The Witch King repeatedly challenged Earnur (the last king of Gondor). So Earnur rode to Minas Morgul and was never seen from again. This leads one to believe he was tortured into giving Sauron permission to use the stone.

I can't remember having read this anywhere (the part about needing permission from a heir of Isildur), but it looks very interesting. Anyone knows where it's taken from?

Falenthal wrote:I can't remember having read this anywhere (the part about needing permission from a heir of Isildur), but it looks very interesting. Anyone knows where it's taken from?

This is an interesting theory. At first glance it has some good reasoning, but it's main weakness is Saruman's use of the Orthanc palantír. He was able to use it, even though he had no heir of Elendil at hand to grant him permission. Of course you can suppose that he had, though this is extremely speculative and (AFAIK) not substantiated anywhere.

Concerning the basic information: You can find it in UT, in the section about the palantíri. In a nutshell, Tolkien says that use of the stones depended greatly on the rightful authority to do so. They were given as a gift to Elendil, whose heirs had this authority. These could - and did - delegate this also to appointed wardens (like the Stewards in Gondor). In the case of Saruman and Sauron, they had no rightful authority, but their nature as Maiar provided them with enough raw "firepower" to overcome the Stone's resistance due to them not being rightfully appointed users. At least that's what Tolkien says about the matter...

Cheers
Tolwen

Pippin seemed to have little problem activating a Palantir but this is not the same as controlling it.

Did Aragorn train with the use of the Tower Hills' Palantir - I can't recall reading anything. Yet I do remember that wardens needed to train for a long time in their use. As such Aragorn can be presumed to be something of a newb when it came to wielding the stone judging by the amount of references to time he spent travelling and dearth of those referring to being sat in the towers looking into glass spheres.
Therefore it can be assumed only as rightful heir Aragorn was able to wrestle control of the Palantir away from Sauron - this would indicate that Sauron never gained authority through any mechanism.

Authority I would argue must also be considered 'magical binding' as it can be presumed that Saruman had permission to use the Orthanc stone when he took up residence even if not explicit but did not have 'true authority' hence being unable to wrestle control away from Sauron despite using the stone for many years.

I don't know if the basic premise presented here is true. However, it is entirely possible that when King Eärnur answered the challenge of the Witch-king in TA 2050, he was not immediately slain, but captured and tortured, perhaps with a Morgul-blade and transformed into a Fell Wraith. After that it might have been a simple task to secure his cooperation with the use of the palantír.

Otaku-sempai wrote:I don't know if the basic premise presented here is true. However, it is entirely possible that when King Eärnur answered the challenge of the Witch-king in TA 2050, he was not immediately slain, but captured and tortured, perhaps with a Morgul-blade and transformed into a Fell Wraith. After that it might have been a simple task to secure his cooperation with the use of the palantír.

A good question (and a possible further unknown variable) would be whether such a "grant" of authority under duress would count as "rightful" for the stone. It probably depends on the type of magical "construction", i.e. whether a pure "technical" grant would be OK, or a "genuine" (voluntary) grant is required. In other magical contexts we see that such a distinction could be important.

Cheers
Tolwen

mica wrote:it can be presumed that Saruman had permission to use the Orthanc stone when he took up residence even if not explicit

I can see him telling the Steward of Gondor:
"Could I have a signed contract explicitly saying that I can take care and use anything in the tower? Just in case, you know...".

Falenthal wrote:I can see him telling the Steward of Gondor:
"Could I have a signed contract explicitly saying that I can take care and use anything in the tower? Just in case, you know...".

After 2953, Saruman was not just the caretaker of Orthanc; the tower was given over to him entirely. It could be argued that Turgon, the twenty-fourth Ruling Steward and father of Ecthelion II, effectively ceded the Orthanc-stone to Saruman at that time--though the truth is that the artifact had probably been all but forgotten with the exception of the White Hand.

(Edited to correct an error.)

Otaku-sempai wrote:After 2951, Saruman was not just the caretaker of Orthanc; the tower was given over to him entirely.

The Tale of Years says for TA 2953, that "Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it." It might be that he asked for permission, but to me this sounds more like "this is mine now - anyone got a problem with that?" Perhaps the Steward legalised it afterwards to keep his face

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen wrote:

Otaku-sempai wrote:After 2951, Saruman was not just the caretaker of Orthanc; the tower was given over to him entirely.

The Tale of Years says for TA 2953, that "Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it." It might be that he asked for permission, but to me this sounds more like "this is mine now - anyone got a problem with that?" Perhaps the Steward legalised it afterwards to keep his face

Cheers
Tolwen

I suspect that Saruman took advantage of the political confusion/weakness caused by both Turgon and Fengel dying in the same year to take Orthanc into his own keeping. All for the greater good, of course.

I think mica gave a good overview of different approaches to "using" the Seeing-stones:

Pippin's case: as a "guest" (to use a computer term), who just gazes into it and sees nothing unless someone more powerful is using another stone at the same moment and happens to connect yours.

The Steward's case: someone rightfully allowed use, but not ownership, over the stones. They probably still need to study and practice their use, as it is not "natural" to them.

Elendil's heirs case: they can use them naturally, without special training or effort (under normal circumstances). They can probably disallow other "users" and forbid their entrance. To use another computer term, they're the Administrators.

Saruman and Sauron's case is very specific and special: they aren't rightfully and willingly allowed use them, like the Steward's are, but are probably also not specifically denied it. Being as powerful as they are, their use of the Palantir is similar to that of a hacker: they don't have the right or ownership of the stones (they are like guests in term of privileges), but can with time and effort overcome all its "firewalls" and protections and use them.