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I was going to post this in the Healing Corruption and other questions thread but thought it would be far too tangential and a little bit of a threadcrap, so have created a new thread.

I'm not sure whether this is much of an issue for many people but I was reading the latest post by Dave Morris on his blog: http://fabledlands.blogspot.co.uk/2016/ ... ntasy.html

An interesting read in-and-of-itself but within it he mentioned the following:

A corollary to this is the use of elves, dwarves, etc, as player-characters. While that might be an interesting experiment for a good role-player over a single evening’s gaming, it can only have a negative effect in the long term. With the best will in the world, if I am playing an elf and adventuring for some reason with a bunch of humans, how long will the music of Faerie hang about me? How long before we reach the crass dungeoneering approach of “Elf at the back with his bow ready, the front rank hits the door...”? If you are trying to play the part of an elf, you must ask yourself a lot of rather mundane questions. Do elves sit in taverns and get drunk? Do they belch and have hangovers? Do they pick their noses, crap and get colds? These are questions that not only should never be answered, they should never be asked.

To focus upon a myth-figure with such boorish scrutiny is to strip away the fragile tissue of suspended disbelief on which it rests. You enter what Michael Polling calls the Cycle of Taxonomic Reduction. Elves cease to be viable myth-images, so (since even the most dedicated aficionado of pulp high fantasy must possess a vestigial imagination) it soon becomes clear one must create something else to fulfill their function in the fantasy environment. Searching a bit deeper into folklore to replace the now unmysterious elf, one might find drow, or spriggans, or bogles. But as soon as these are duly written up and codified, they too are devalued and the desperate slide continues. It is possible to apply a few game-safeguards (“this race is for NPCs only” or “the GM may choose from the following facts about the race, some of which may be only half-truths”) but these do not stop the rot entirely. A close look at any game’s monster listings usually turns up several valiant attempts at remythologisation. I have just flipped through the Fiend Folio, where the meenlock and revenant are good examples. But on the barren soil of rules and stats they can never be more than a pale after-image of the original myths.

Which is something I've mulled over for a long time, especially with regard to The One Ring. I dislike the approach of banning elves as PCs but I do think it is vital to maintain their mythic and mysterious or other-wordly quality, which can easily be lost when used as PCs.

So, I suppose I'd like this thread to be a discussion as to our opinions of the above quote (and perhaps elements of the full blog post, if required) but more importantly how do you as players and GMs maintain that air of mystery and/or otherwordliness to such immortal creatures. Is it a mindset that can be played by a player or is it simply too alien? Do you think it's important? Do you gloss over it or ignore it?

Meh. You can overthink these things.

Where do you want to draw the line? Not allowed to play a wizard because you have no concept of magic or considering your flabby body even a warrior - hell most of us would be stuck with playing office workers and computer nerds simply because we have no idea what really goes through the mind of a hardened warrior who has spent years in the wilderness slaying monsters.

Come to think of it, I have been married for more than a decade and still no closer to even understanding what makes women tick.

Tolkien himself threw some of that 'mythic air' out of the window when Galion sat down with his friend the Keeper of the Keys and got roaring drunk on the Elvenking's wine (though we don't know whether they woke up with hangovers). Granted the Elves of Mirkwood were supposed to be a bit easier to relate to than the High Elves.

Presumably, Elves don't catch colds or the flu. But they only pick their noses or defecate when no one else is looking. And the resulting material smells like flowers and dewdrops and a little bit will sustain a full-grown Man for an entire day.

Since Elves are supposed to be immune to natural disease, how would they react to an unnatural plague created especially for them by Sauron? Probably with some degree of panic.

I notice that Morris included the Dwarves in his article as well when he was questioning the inclusion of other races as PCs. Tolkien's Dwarves have always been much more earthy than his Elves. I don't see any problem there.

mica wrote:Where do you want to draw the line? Not allowed to play a wizard because you have no concept of magic.

Well, that is a potential reason why they are off-limits in TOR. It's far easier to imagine being a capable fighter in my experience as its focus is largely mundane and something that can be related to within our own real world and associated experiences.

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Assuming people reading want to have a considered discussion, how do players playing elves approach such issues? I know when one of my players played a Mirkwood Elf he acted somewhat distant an aloof to maintain that mystery. Being a bit of a Tolkien scholar he also kept quiet, until asked, about bits of Lore and the like. He would also pass notes when invoking things like the "Speaker" virtue in order to maintain an air of mystery as to how his character went about doing things, etc. This seemed to work pretty well but I suspect this could get a little strained if used all the time so what other options have players and GMs employed?

Otaku-sempai wrote:Tolkien himself threw some of that 'mythic air' out of the window when Galion sat down with his friend the Keeper of the Keys and got roaring drunk on the Elvenking's wine (though we don't know whether they woke up with hangovers). Granted the Elves of Mirkwood were supposed to be a bit easier to relate to than the High Elves.

That's a good point and I do see a definite divide between those two types of elf-kind. I think the style of writing in the Hobbit to that of the Lord of the Rings also helps differentiate them.

Otaku-sempai wrote:I notice that Morris included the Dwarves in his article as well when he was questioning the inclusion of other races as PCs. Tolkien's Dwarves have always been much more earthy than his Elves. I don't see any problem there.

I agree. I really wouldn't put Dwarves in the same space; especially Tolkien's.

I think the differences, if accepted, do provide opportunities for some interesting RPing rather than just glossing over things.

Elves are only mythical in the tolkien universe because there are few of them. In the Silmarillion they are quite base creatures, ruled by the same impulses as other creatures. Only that they are superhuman in the Nazi sense: they are just better than humans in everything. And they do not die of illness or old age if they do not want to, so they worry about things disregarding these limits of humans and other shorter lived creatures.

They are mythical to hobbits and humans because they rarely encounter them, and they recognise the elves as their genetic better. That does not mean that they do not have flaws, far from it: elves can be some of the meanest and lowly creatures on earth when you read the Silmarillion.

For elf players, the limits of time and looooooong time considerations are what makes them ethereal. At least for me. They just perceive the passage of time differently. A 100 year old oak might be a fast growing sapling to an elf.

And they have minor magics since they are touched by the Ages and Eru. This allows they an extremely minor role in world-manipulation that is natural to them and totally alien to others, but it is just one of the many things that set them apart. I do not see the need to mystify what they are. they are quite mystic already even ig you know all their numerical stats. YMMV.

Look to the encounter that Frodo had with the Elves on the border of the Shire. They were singing, feasting, drinking wine, and glowing softly. Except for the glowing part they seemed rather ordinary.

Legolas rapidly became an accepted member of the Fellowship, despite being able to run on top of the snow.

Tolkien's Elves seem a good bit more earthy and human than say the Alfar of Norse myth.

Elmoth wrote:Elves are only mythical in the tolkien universe because there are few of them.

Perhaps its therefore critical to keep the number of Elf PCs to a low level in a Fellowship, unless there is a reason for them to be in a larger group - eg, a particular campaign etc. That way you enforce the feeling of their dwindling numbers.

Elmoth wrote:And they do not die of illness or old age if they do not want to, so they worry about things disregarding these limits of humans and other shorter lived creatures.

I wonder if this needs to be drawn out explicitly within the TOR rules...

Elmoth wrote:They are mythical to hobbits and humans because they rarely encounter them, and they recognise the elves as their genetic better. That does not mean that they do not have flaws, far from it: elves can be some of the meanest and lowly creatures on earth when you read the Silmarillion.

Absolutely agree and this reminds me of playing the Amber RPG; the PCs were effectively immortal demi-gods but had all the vices and excesses of humans, if not more so. I may dig the book out and look over it again as there were tips to playing an immortal character within it which could be used to provided some support for Elves here in order to differentiate them somewhat to mortal races.

Elmoth wrote:For elf players, the limits of time and looooooong time considerations are what makes them ethereal. At least for me. They just perceive the passage of time differently. A 100 year old oak might be a fast growing sapling to an elf.

This is how one of my players handled it, like I said above: being somewhat aloof and distant and appearing to be slow to act but once set to a task he was driven and utterly unstoppable. I liked that approach as it was a nice way of explaining their immortal perception and how he approached interacting with others. It does take a specific mindset though and I was wondering if other players employed different approaches?

Elmoth wrote:And they have minor magics since they are touched by the Ages and Eru. This allows they an extremely minor role in world-manipulation that is natural to them and totally alien to others, but it is just one of the many things that set them apart. I do not see the need to mystify what they are. they are quite mystic already even ig you know all their numerical stats. YMMV.

It was more how to play those out at the table. For instance, the elf player in my game kept his abilities very guarded and close to his chest.

If the Elves are more godlike than mortals, well, any given mythological god is prone to very mortal foibles. So must the Elves be. They bleed, they feel anger, love, hatred, envy. In these ways they are much like mortal Men and Dwarves. Ah, but there are differences, and important ones! Largely, these differences are a matter of perspective. Elves hunger as do humans. They craft things as do humans. But their perspective is fundamentally different, being closer to the gods by their very nature, immortal and keenly touched by Middle-earth's unique mysticism.

We all know that Middle-earth isn't as flashy as most high fantasy. Mythic resonance takes on a real life of its own, has a power and an agency every bit as magical as a fireball or a flaming sword. Deeds and intent have real effects beyond the immediate; it's not unlike the Force in Star Wars in this way. There is magic in raising a garden, say, for the simple pleasure of tending the growing earth. If you do evil things, and have an evil heart, those forces might literally corrupt you until outwardly you resemble that corruption. The Rings were made with a desire to preserve or, in Sauron's case, to dominate others. Magic is pervasive but often subtle, infusing the words, actions, and feelings of the entities of Middle-earth.

Elves are more keenly aware of this than others. This is how you separate them when they have obviously mortal qualities. You describe them as something beyond mortal but not quite god. The Elves woke up the trees, Treebeard says, but how did they do that? They weren't necessarily through big, flashy spells. It was more likely through a simple desire to communicate. We get a few examples in the books that really highlight this:

Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

'I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves. 'They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land.... Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lórien that we love.... Yet they are garments, not armour, and they will not turn shaft or blade. But they should serve you well: they are light to wear, and warm enough or cool enough at need. And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees. You are indeed high in the favour of the Lady! For she herself and her maidens wove this stuff; and never before have we clad strangers in the garb of our own people.'

Elves made magic cloaks indeed, but they didn't do it through vast arcane energies. Rather, they simply poured some of themselves, the things they loved, into their craft. The result was a magical item, enchanted by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't really a deliberate thing.

Quickly Sam unslung his pack and rummaged in it. There indeed at the bottom was a coil of the silken-grey rope made by the folk of Lórien. He cast an end to his master. The darkness seemed to lift from Frodo's eyes, or else his sight was returning. He could see the grey line as it came dangling down, and he thought it had a faint silver sheen.

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'It's good to be able to see again,' said Frodo, breathing deep.... 'I could see nothing, nothing at all, until the grey rope came down. It seemed to shimmer somehow.'

'It does look sort of silver in the dark,' said Sam.

Here we can see another subtle bit of magic. The mere presence of something from the good folk of Lórien, imbued with their subtle mystical qualities, dispels the darkness clouding Frodo's eyes. And of course the rope comes undone in accordance with Sam's desire. It was as strong a knot as anyone ever tied, but because he wanted the rope to come undone when it did so that he could reclaim it, the rope did just that.

How do you maintain the mystery? For one, you will most likely have to trust your players to do it. Give them the benefit of the doubt regarding playing Elves. The other is by things like this, demonstrating a perspective fundamentally different from those of mortals. The Elves make magic simply by being, enchanting cloaks and ropes by doing nothing more than putting a piece of themselves in their work. A mortal Man might do the same thing, but not end up with an enchanted item, or indeed even conceive that it is possible. But the Elf keenly aware of the hidden forces of the world, sensitive to the flows of time and fate and meaning, to her it's not even "magic." It's just a consequence of their act.

Mythic resonance is key. Meaning itself has real power in Middle-earth. Elves embody this more than the other peoples. They can speak with stones and wake up trees simply through the desire to communicate. The very act of putting the thought of things they hold dear into what they create enchants their creation. They utter curses that will shake the foundations of the earth. They fashion starlight into gems of immeasurable beauty. Their love of nature is such that a bit of soil from Lórien can help a humble gardener from the Shire, whose love of the green growing earth must surely rival their own, transform his beloved homeland. They even had golden-haired children born after that point, something that had been extremely rare up until that point.

To play an Elf and maintain that sense of wonder, particularly High Elves, I suspect that the in-character perspective must take these things into account. To the Elf, song and action, feeling and will, these things are all the same. Expression is the direct conduit from the Elven soul to Middle-earth. The Elf character doesn't cast a spell that is under her control but channeling a force separate from herself. She is Lúthien, taking mastery of Sauron's fortress through sheer will. She is channeling herself into the effect.

Maintaining this alien perspective while contrasting it with the similarities is paramount to portraying Elves as PCs. The Elf PC dreams but does not (always) sleep. Hungers but does not starve. Feels pain, but does not age, or grow sick. The Elf sees and feels things that the others can't, because the Elf character is simply more in tune with the forces that shape Middle-earth. Stress that at every good opportunity and I think you'll be golden.

Maybe this is too simplistic an analogy, but suppose someone from the 21st century was transported back in time to the medieval period with some of the technology we take for granted. To the folk living in the past that which we consider completely normal would appear magical. I think our theoretical time traveler would also seem magical and somewhat more godlike in that setting.

I see elves being similar in some ways to that time traveler. They are from another time and closer to Creation and perfection. While they don't wield iPhones or electric cars, they do have access to technology that the other races don't really comprehend and thus see as magic.

I think that the older I get, the easier it is to imagine how an immortal elf might view the mortal races. I can look back on nearly 50 years of personal experiences as I interact with my children and other young adults. I think of my 13 year old son. He believes he is quite brilliant and self sufficient as he is learning about the world, but I see his progress to adulthood from a different perspective. I am not a better or more perfect individual, but I do have the advantage of experience. I can see his mistakes more clearly. I can better anticipate the results of the choices he is making. To him, I seem old and out of touch. To me, he can seem immature and naive. Despite that perception of each other, we can work together and learn from one another.

Maybe an elf would view a mortal in a similar fashion. The only difference would be that while their mind continues to grow and mature, their bodies are not experiencing the ravages of time. I think it would be like having the mind of a 65 year old in the body of an 18 year old. With an elf, though they would have experienced many generations of the lives of men.

I would probably play an elf relating to mortals in a similar way to how I would relate to a young teen. I think elves would prone to come off as aloof or even unintentionally condescending. They might be nurturing toward their mortal companions or perhaps even be impatient at times. I might play an elf as grandfatherly or I might even play an elf as a difficult to relate to professorial type.

Maybe that destroys all the mythical feel of the elves. I don't think that Tolkien's elves are all that mythical though. I see them as flawed beings without physical age. They are prone to the same drives and emotions as humans, but with a different perspective on time and on their relationship to the world.

Then again, maybe this makes no sense and I don't really have a clue how an immortal being would think, let alone be played in a game.