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I dunno. A party of 6 250XP female characters against the witch king of angmar sounds reasonably fair.

This of course presumes some of his defenses for some reason don't work against anything with 2 X chromosomes.

@Rich, I'm glad I'm not the only one!

The Hobbit An Unexpected Journey bored me to tears & I could barely stay awake. I'm glad you said that about the second. At any rate, I'll save my money & see the second & third ones on TV. I doubt any of us want to waste our time discussing the endless departures from canon, so I'll move on

@Dave the Lost, I'm glad someone recalls Vermithrax Perjorative. IMHO, she's still the most believable (in terms of the willing suspension of disbelief) dragon on film. I often LM dragons of whatever breed modeled on her.

Concerning our original thread, however, I should probably clarify that I meant that a company can potentially venture toward - let alone in - Dol Guldur, only during those times when the Necromancer no longer reigns within

Despite the multiple problems with a previous company's iteration of table-top gaming in Middle-earth, I completely agree with their description of Sauron as all but invincible. They thus do not provide him with stats. If the heroes should somehow meet the Dark Lord, he can blast them or strike them down in a myriad of ways, & they are effectively doomed. ToR handles the appearance of a certain individual well in TfW, & that's about as close as I believe anyone should get. In a well-balanced game, a fight against Sauron should be a TPK, & he's best played in the background, non-confrontational directly, but subtly & cunningly, working through his servants.

Well, that's just my two pence.

Even the White Council seem only to have been able to drive off a diminished Sauron in Dol Guldur. Even with the Ring destroyed Sauron was not destroyed, merely so weakened he could not take shape again. He was literally a fallen angel. TPK seems about right.

As for Desolation of Smaug, it deviated from the novel at numerous points, both major and minor. Like Jackson's previous movies I think it would have benefited from tighter editing. I saw it in 2D and while I could see some shots that might have been more exciting in 3D I don't think my viewing experience suffered.

My reaction to Jackson's portrayal of Dol Guldur was mixed. Somehow it just didn't have the aura of evil I would have expected. The Necromancer was a big letdown.

One point from the movie I would like to touch upon, and is relevant to this thread. In the film the Necromancer is shown to be an organizing power behind the Orcs in the Misty Mountains at this time. At several points Orcish agents are shown acting on or relaying orders from Sauron. How do others view this? Was Sauron in his guise as the Necromancer exerting overt influence over the Orcs of Moria, the Misty Mountains and Wilderland and directing them against the Woodland Realm and Lake Town?

Some of this ties in to Jackson's Azog's ongoing pursuit of Thorin & co. and we also see Bolg (or at least an Orc by that name). What I don't recall is the hand of Sauron so heavily influencing events in the latter part of the Hobbit. Perhaps this is because it is Bilbo's narrative, and Tolkien elaborates on it elsewhere? Or is it Jackson's interpretation? What are others doing in their games?

Boronind wrote:Kudos to Mim and Boneguard. However, I'm not planning on making a trip to Wisconsin anytime soon nor do I own or plan to own the MERP DG book.

Call me lazy, but perhaps you LM's in-the-legendarium-know are willing to fill in the gaps or provide direct links that do.

I think I have a PDF of it somewhere...I got most of my books in print and PDF format. If I can locate it would you be interested by it?

Boneguard wrote:I think I have a PDF of it somewhere...I got most of my books in print and PDF format. If I can locate it would you be interested by it?

Sure, will PM you. Thanks!

Well, the only weapon in Middle Earth known to be actually effective against Sauron is Anduril, and it wasn't fixed yet when the White Council gave him the boot. It boiled down to Sauron being outgunned by too many Maia and Caliquendi in opposition (Gandalf and Saruman, possibly Radagast cause he was in town, and then Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, and some other Caliquendi style bigshot elves.)

Even a party of 250XP characters simply doesn't have the firepower to take on Sauron himself without lots of Istari Backup. And even with such backup, the character simply sit there watching the wizards go mano a mano with Sauron. Sauron is stronger then any single wizard (Except perhaps Gandalf the White), but if they gang up on him, even he's gotta run.

Hum... you are Wrong - the only weapon known to be effective against Sauron was the shard of Narsil...

Clearly Sauron was a munch kin and got extra character points by taking "Weakness: Broken Sword". He rubbed his hands with glee thinking "that's never gonna happen!"*

On a more serious note Morgoth was wounded several times - Burned by the silmarils, his foot hewn by the sword Ice Crystal and his face forever sccared by the great eagle Thorondor. He was the only valar to bind himself to a physical body and was vulnerable

So Melkor was wounded by an eagle?

Looking into it you can find Sauron is bested by the great hound Huran and is given the choice to yeild or have his body destroyed to then be a naked ghost. He yeilded.

It is mentioned during a war with the elves he is beaten back, with just his bodyguard remaining. Having a bodyguard?

Finally I think sauron was actually defeated by Gil-Galad and Elindil (who both perished defeating him), and after the defeat Isuldur took up the shards of Narsil and cut the ring from Saurons finger; so Snow-Point (I think), Gil-Galad's Spear could hurt him also.

So I think he could be hurt. Though you'd probably die trying Epic feat anyone

(Preceding to gain enough points to reform as a big flaming eye he compounded his mistake by taking "Major specific weakness: Specific golden ring cast into Oridruin")

@James, you summarize this well. Elrond said that they would never be able to raise again such a host of Elves & Men, & he probably not just because of numbers but their martial prowess & faith. Gil-galad & Elendil tangled with Sauron, & Isildur cut the ring from the Dark Lord's finger using the shard of Narsil.

@Dave, the Orcs are not as well described in terms of their organization & such in The Hobbit, but The Lord of the Rings goes into more detail about how Sauron (apparently) spread his influence into the Mountains during the Third Age. He worked subtly, for example: when the Orcs ambushed Celebrían, Elrond's wife, in 2509, note the first line of the entry:

In the days of Arahad I the Orcs, who had, as later appeared, long been secretly occupying strongholds in the Misty Mountains, so as to bar all the passes into Eriador, suddenly revealed themselves.

You can interpret it in several ways - did the Orcs do this on their own, or did Sauron's servants organize & dispatch them? Either way gives you wiggle room to introduce Azog or your own variant.

Boronind wrote:Attention Masters of the Legendarium! Your aid is much needed!

(1) I am about to begin playing a Woodman character in a campaign and am curious about how the Woodmen of (Western) Mirkwood (esp. the three major settlements mentioned in the Heart of the Wild) "related" to Dol Guldur over the course of the Third Age 1000 and forward to 2946.
[...]
Thus, what I'm looking for is a really good write up (and conjecture) about Dol Guldur's history, activity, and effect upon the surrounding area from the time of Sauron's taking it up to the time of him fleeing to Mordor--that remains as true as possible to the legendarium's account.

Here's hoping some of you will step up and give us some quality history (cough...Tolwen)!

I'm a bit late in here, but perhaps may give a useful idea or two. The questions you raise are good ones. IMO one of the central issues related to it is the timescale we are operating in here (and you mentioned it in your post).

Since about TA 1000 the Wise are aware of an evil power (thought to be a Nazgûl) in Dol Guldur. But for almost exactly 1,000 years no one cared to investigate any closer (or at least there was no such action worth mentioning in the major histories known to us). Now the question is - how came this to be? There is certainly no easy answer and several explanations are possible. For example, Gondor was at its height during the ascendancy of DG. It would have been easy to go in there at this time - so why did this not happen?

My interpretation is that, that Sauron was extremely careful in creating the perfect cover story for himself to remain undisturbed for as long as possible. To this end, several things would be needed (amongst others):

• Make it look like a local phenomenon and not spreading too far and becoming too evil for this cover
• Find/create a logical and believable cover story (my favourite is the 'Necromancer' being an evil entity given this name by the local Northmen who believe he holds their deceased ancestors hostage).
• Avoid any hints that Sauron (=a very powerful entity) is here. Keep the "power level" of evil so low that a Nazgûl (at most) is believable as the cause for all the evil.

In an old OH there was a transcript of a panel discussion where this topic was peripherally touched as well. I'll have to dig out which Issue it was. There was a very good idea however: In the mid-TA, there were two evil regions in NW Middle-earth: Angmar and Dol Guldur. One might think that the Wise could not put two and two together (at least not with our hindsight) in this context.
The Witch-king was sent to Angmar to destroy the Northern Dúnedain. It seems natural that there would be contacts between the two realms and the very real possibility exists that this is discovered (given the relative locations of the two) over time.
Now the solution is to make it appear as if DG is the junior partner and Angmar the senior one! This would deflect suspicion and attention away from DG to Angmar. Not a bad idea IMO. It could be portrayed as a coordinated effort by two Nazgûl-level entities - with the senior one sitting in Carn-dûm rather than in Dol Guldur.

After the destruction of Angmar the Watchful Peace sets in with Sauron's flight from DG (after Gandalf's suspicions finally became big enough to warrant a visit). During the following 400 years, the evil influence must have been minimal and confined to DG itself while Mirkwood became relatively normal again. After Sauron's return in TA 2460, the evil would once again spread - and stronger than before. Therefore it took "only" 390 years this time for Gandalf to decide on a second visit - where he finally blew Sauron's cover. Afterwards, the Dark Lord was free to act upon his wishes, since he did not need take caution for his cover. Thus, after TA 2850, it is likely that the evil intensified yet again.

In the end, I'd say that the very intense evil of Mirkwood encountered in 'The Hobbit' and (as told) 'The Lord of the Rings' is a relatively recent phenomenon of the last ca. 95 years (from TOR's perspective). Before, it was already quite high (TA 2460-2850), extremely low before (TA 2063 to 2460) and somewhat intermediate before this (TA 1000 to 2063).

Cheers
Tolwen

Great post tolwen! Thanks for sharing