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Also Legolas is Sindar but the way these Wayward Elves are represented they seem like the "most Silvan" of the Silvan elves if I can put it this way. The way they accept to stay in Middle Earth and fade away and they are always in tune with the nature in my mind should allow them to access different kinds of wood elf magic. More faerie like stuff. Some other forms of combinations or modifications of the wood elf magic and the speakers virtues I think would have fit perfectly.

And I want to also say the famous companies part looks just amazing. I really like how they detailed more into the patrons and these companies.

I find the Wayward Elves concept to be a bit tone-deaf to Tolkien. The mainstream elves of Mirkwood go out into the forest to hunt and feast, not a rebellious group. It's what elves do. That's what Faerie is. Elves are both delightful and dangerous. They don't split those traits among them.

I also think the famous companies section misses the Tolkien mark. People like Radagast and Glorfindel didn't go around directing companies of professional adventurers. The White Council wasn't formed to micromanage resistance to the Shadow.

I feel like The One Ring kind of misses an important point too in all the basic character backgrounds it provides, in which characters are given reasons to want to go out adventuring. The famous companies are just the latest, most evolved form of this. But whatever happened to the REAL reason for going on adventures?

The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo: adventures, as I used to call them. I used to think that they were things the wonderful folk of the stories went out and looked for, because they wanted them, because they were exciting and life was a bit dull, a kind of a sport, as you might say. But that’s not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually – their paths were laid that way, as you put it.

The disconnect of the game with this very important passage has always bothered me, and my discomfort with it is growing.

Stormcrow wrote:I feel like The One Ring kind of misses an important point too in all the basic character backgrounds it provides, in which characters are given reasons to want to go out adventuring. The famous companies are just the latest, most evolved form of this. But whatever happened to the REAL reason for going on adventures?

Not so sure about the other points, but I feel like this is fair game. BUT, it's also not--that's a pretty tall task for an RPG to provide for. AND there's actually nothing to stop LMs providing more of these kinds of beginnings and backgrounds (and certain rulesets such as Holdings etc. actually help)--I totally aspire to get to that swept away feeling. But I think you have to recognize that that would just be too much work for most, or not enjoyable/not what they are looking for. You kind of have to be able to run a con game that doesn't just involve sitting at Bag End for 4 months angsting over when to leave, right?

cuthalion wrote:that's a pretty tall task for an RPG to provide for.

When you publish a Tolkien RPG, you're necessarily taking on that challenge.

AND there's actually nothing to stop LMs providing more of these kinds of beginnings and backgrounds

Certainly not. LMs can add or change anything they like. My point is that I'm seeing a general trend in the published material toward adventurers looking for "kind of a sport" of Sam's misconception and away from the swept-off-their-feet heroes Sam realizes is the truth. Even Gandalf's "quiet lads and lasses" going on adventures did so for unknown reasons, and not necessarily wanderlust.

But I think you have to recognize that that would just be too much work for most, or not enjoyable/not what they are looking for.

Which is what, exactly?

I'd make the argument that Sam himself wanted to go off to "see the elves", not realizing that adventures are not all that. Likewise, Bilbo went off for other reasons than the fact that it was the right thing to do.

What maybe defines Sam and the rest is that when the adventure stops being mere sport and turns deadly serious, they stick around to see the thing until the end.

I think also it's important to remember that when you're playing certain Cultures its a little easier to say they do go out and look for adventures - remember, an adventure can be 'hunting down a pack of orcs that are terrorizing your lands' and that's an acceptable adventure hook for say, Riders of Rohan or Men of Minas Tirith.

Stormcrow wrote:

But I think you have to recognize that that would just be too much work for most, or not enjoyable/not what they are looking for.

Which is what, exactly?

DnD. Character classes, a party of adventurers, a quest, a quest giver, a reward, . . . yada yada. Love it or hate it that's kinda what RPGs are to most folks--and as much as I bag on DnD, the fact of the matter is that we wouldn't be where we are today, with increasingly niche and nuanced options out there and market for them, if it wasn't for that formula. (As much as I kind of want to imagine a parallel universe, where the first RPG was an uber-realistic, gritty, smartly designed love letter to middle earth, that still somehow caught the world's imagination.)

Stormcrow wrote:When you publish a Tolkien RPG, you're necessarily taking on that challenge.

Yes--but they also have to be able to make a living, and publishing a small amount of super niche products only to go out of business months later isn't really what anybody wants.

What I think we should be grateful about is that TOR's design is tight enough and faithful enough that the kind of game that you and I want to run is right there for the taking in the RAW, with very little modification needed. I think that's a real testament to Cub7's creative vision. I'm sure they had to make pretty hard compromises themselves in balancing a lot of competing interests. Not something I could have done.

I think that';s one of the perks about AiME. It will allow those who want to play "D&D Middle Earth" a chance to do so without forcing TOR to become D&D Middle Earth.

atgxtg wrote:I think that';s one of the perks about AiME. It will allow those who want to play "D&D Middle Earth" a chance to do so without forcing TOR to become D&D Middle Earth.

This has nothing to do with D&D; Stormcrow's concerns, in his opinion, are already evident in TOR - eg, character backgrounds, the way some/all published adventures are setup, famous companies (within the AC), etc.

Stormcrow wrote:

cuthalion wrote:that's a pretty tall task for an RPG to provide for.

When you publish a Tolkien RPG, you're necessarily taking on that challenge.

It depends on how big a deal that is for the writers/designers and the target market. Also, for many there's a difference between playing a Tolkien RPG and a Middle-earth RPG. Overlap may exist between the two (ie, the regions, people, locations, etc) but they aren't necessarily the same thing and can mean very different things to different people.

However, that said... I do think that Callings are extremely underutilised in TOR and I also reckon this is where the game could provide a lot more support to LMs and players alike in understanding how to put together adventures and far deeper motivations for why some people (the PCs and others) end up on adventures. This could also be used to explain and illustrate what keeps such characters adventuring after the initial adventure/scenario. I really think there has been a missed opportunity in the published adventures of providing more 'setup information' as to how to involve PCs in a scenario and have this information specifically framed in reference to each of the Callings along with the Cultures. Done right such elements would have given LMs the information and ideas needed to foreshadow the adventure in question or, for example, weave such elements into a characters' background so that they can naturally develop and grow as the campaign, and the emergent story, progresses. This is a reallyt difficult task to pull off in a published RPG but I do take the point of what Stormcrow is saying; a Tolkien RPG should try and aim to be different from other standard fantasy ones. It is, in many many ways, but I do think how adventures occur and what makes adventurers tick in such an RPG could do with further detail and support for LMs and players.

Perhaps this is something that we could develop in a thread of it's own which could lead to a fan supplement; bit like the "Guid to Trait Usage" I put together after the discussions around that area of the game. Thoughts?