Are the new Cultures balanced?

[Dunkelbrink]

Firstly, I have to congratulate Cubicle 7 on another great, very useful product! And with the new Cultures players have almost endless possibilities in creating their character.

That said, I can't avoid thing about balance between the cultures. I know TOR isn't D&D where class balance is a major thing, and I certainly don't play it that way, but my feeling is that Franscesco and the team has made great efforts to make the Cultures feel balanced. That is an intricate task, to balance skills, attributes, cultural blessing and Virtues and Rewards. Rangers and High Elves hade higher stats, but special drawbacks. Dunlendings have low attributes, Hope and Endurance, but make up for that in powerful Rewards/Virtues and a powerful Blessing. And so on.

Among the new Cultures presented Men of Bree and Men of Minas Tirith really stand out. Men of Bree have low attributes (sum of 13 instead of standard 14). They also have low Endurance AND surprisingly low Hope. Their Blessing is ok but not more (they are worse at handling Fear rolls but better at Corruption). Their Rewards and Virtues are standard or weak compared to other Cultures.

The Men of Minas Tirith, on the other hand, are extremely powerful. Attributes have a sum of 15 compared to normal 14. The Blessing is very powerful in that they can avoid Eyes on all common or attack rolls, an ability that makes up for the somewhat higher xp cost. Add to that very powerful Rewards and especially Virtues. "Guard of the Tower" has to be the single most powerful ability in the game. Carrying a longsword they would add 6 End to each hit, with a Great spear 8 End! THat's about three times more powerful than having a Grevious weapon. Move to defensive stance and you instead have the Bardings sword master ability as an extra ability (almost) free of charge, or move to Open if you're weary.

Just wondering if others have thought of the same thing, since to me it'a a bit surprising. Right now I would have to house rule both of these cultures. The Breelanders in particular have a lot of charm to them but really stand out as an subpar choice.

[Stormcrow]

Right now I would have to house rule both of these cultures.

Before you've even tried them?

[Dunkelbrink]

Right now I would have to house rule both of these cultures.

Before you've even tried them?

Well, yeah. I don't need to try it out ingame to know for example that a 6 is greater than a 2. And I rather fix it beforehand instead of having a player choosing an ability that I have to change later on.

But my point is that I, as well as others on the forum, are interested in theory crafting and game design. And to me these two cultures really stand out in terms of power, which is odd considering Cultures in the past. But maybe I'm alone with this opinion.

[Stormcrow]

Well, yeah. I don't need to try it out ingame to know for example that a 6 is greater than a 2.

Don't compare 6 and 2; compare 14 and 13.

[zedturtle]

Men of Bree have low attributes (sum of 13 instead of standard 14). They also have low Endurance AND surprisingly low Hope. Their Blessing is ok but not more (they are worse at handling Fear rolls but better at Corruption). Their Rewards and Virtues are standard or weak compared to other Cultures.

Huh. I'm not sure that I agree about the Rewards/Virtues being weak.

Desperate Courage works against most enemies of any significance.

Friendly and Inquisitive gets you free APs, which helps you be a stronger character.

Out of Memory and Old Tales can get up to 3 more bonus dice for every scene. Plus since it's the same skill used each time, use F&I in order to pump Riddle sky-high.

The Big and The Little gives you a bonus Fellowship Point, turning you into a honorary (Shire-)Hobbit.

Traveller's Blessing is a flat bonus to all Travel rolls (i.e. Fatigue tests and Hazard checks).

Gatekeeper's Lantern is situational, but could be quite useful.

Pipe of the Prancing Pony interacts with Out of Memory and Old Tales in a way that is very powerful.

Shield of the First Men is situational, but added to Desperate Courage and reasonable Body scores means that Bree-folk can be tanks.

[Glorelendil]

First of all, I personally am not remotely concerned about this sort of balance in TOR. (I think Hobbits should be far weaker in combat than they are, for example.) I don't play TOR with the same mindset as I do D&D, where I think balance is more important. But that's just me, and not what your thread is about.

So, second of all, I think you're overvaluing a single point of a single Attribute. Dunlendings are also 13-pointers, and I started playing one as soon as I could because their virtues are amazing. (So is one of their rewards...so amazing that I'm pointedly avoiding it.) I don't see a problem with Men of Bree or Men of Minas Tirith either.

Men of Bree have some really cool virtues and rewards. Men of Bree should have lots of Hope to spend, many bonus dice, and extra AP (which in turn can translate into ever-more AP and more bonus dice). What I like about Men of Bree is that they aren't going to be anything special in combat...which I think makes a ton of sense...but they'll shine in Encounters and in all kinds of other odd situations. Jacks of all Trades.

Men of Minas Tirith: their cultural blessing is kind of cool, but it only kicks in 1/12th of the time, and even then doesn't guarantee a success (great for avoiding Eye of Mordor, though...). I ran some sims and it seems to increase success rates by around 2-3%. By way of comparison, a flat +1 bonus results in an increase about 3 times as large.

But the cost...omg. To get to Valour 4 / Wisdom 4 they'll spend 58 XP vs 42 XP for normal cultures. That's 16 extra XP, more than the 10 you would have spent raising a weapon skill to 4. So you've basically just traded an extra Success die for a bonus 1/10th as large (not even counting the chance at another Tengwar).

Unless I'm doing the arithmetic in my head incorrectly (a distinct possibility), with 94 XP a normal culture can get to 5/5/5 (Wisdom/Valour/Weapon). It takes the Man of Minas Tirith the same 94 just to raise Wisdom and Valour, leaving his weapon two entire dice behind at 3. (Yes, he could raise his weapon instead of Wisdom or Valour, but then we're truly comparing apples and oranges and I have no idea how to model that.)

It's basically the same XP tax that Rangers and Noldor face, which is a big reason I gave up playing my Ranger. That and the Hope shortage were not worth the two extra attribute points.

So, yeah, Men of Minas Tirith have that extra attribute point and some pretty amazing great and rewards. But they need it to make up for their Cultural Curse. I mean, "Blessing".

I wouldn't start house ruling anything just yet....

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, Men of Bree have some very good stuff. A free Advancement Point every encounter and a free extra Preliminary Roll on every possible preliminary, all with Riddle (a Favored Skill) are actually nothing to sneeze at. Traveler's Blessing is also solid and The Big And The Little is actually the best Hope recovery enhancer in the game (two Hope most sessions, better than any other option). Their Rewards are very shiny too. I think they're probably on par with most other Cultures in most ways...maybe a bit less combat focused than some.

The Men of Minas Tirith, meanwhile, are sorta halfway between the Advanced Cultures and the more normal ones, but yeah, they're really good...at, like, two things. They're excellent at combat, but beyond the very early game, only the doubled shield bonus of Guard of the Tower is regularly useful (the others are super risky, especially the Foward Stance one...which is admittedly amazing if willing to take the risk) and they're not a high base Parry Culture. They thus max at Parry 13. That's good, but lower than Woodmen in the proper environment, and no higher than a High Elf. Though, on the other hand, the Shield of the Citadel and Weapon of Great Lineage are absurd. They're also good at inspiring their comrades and serving as a Captain, but not overwhelmingly better than others (Rohirrim can do just as well at inspiring, for example).

But all that is combat stuff. They're perhaps one of the best Cultures there is at combat. But outside combat? They're okay with the right Virtues (they have one okay Virtue each for Journeys and Encounters, plus a decent Blessing)...but nothing special. And to pay for that combat prowess, they have vastly increased Experience costs on buying Wisdom and Valour, which is no small disadvantage...especially since they have absolutely no Virtues that help with either Wisdom or Valour checks. Which is pretty thematic given Boromir and all.

[Blubbo Baggins]

I absolutely think the new cultures are balanced.

If anything, I was thinking that like the Dunlendings, the Men of Bree are almost too good. Both of those cultures seem like not much to get excited about, until you look at them closely, and see that they are very, very good. They both have abilities ike the original King's Blade for the Hobbits, or the still OP Honeycakes for Beornings.
I'd be very happy to play either one.

If anything, I was thinking that Men of Minas Tirith are almost underpowered. Not that they don't have amazing abilities in combat, as others posted. But they might struggle somewhat, otherwise.

[amajo]

Men of Minas Tirith: their cultural blessing is kind of cool, but it only kicks in 1/12th of the time, and even then doesn't guarantee a success (great for avoiding Eye of Mordor, though...). I ran some sims and it seems to increase success rates by around 2-3%. By way of comparison, a flat +1 bonus results in an increase about 3 times as large.

Unless you roll an Eye on the second roll, rerolling an Eye doesn't only increase the numerical result, but also:
- on any action roll, it increases the chance of rolling a Gandalf, thus of an automatic success
- avoids increasing the Eye awareness (if using the highly recommended Eye of Mordor rules)
- it avoids a Hazard episode during journeys
- it increases the chance of rolling a piercing blow in combat
- it avoids a fumble on an attempted called shot

Amado

[bluejay]

Yeah it does raise the chance of rolling a Gandalf but by a trivial amount ...

It raises it from 1 in 12 up to a whopping 13 in 144.

Basically the only extra chance you get is if you first roll an eye (1/12) and then roll a Gandalf on the second roll (1/12). so it adds an extra 1 in 144 chance of rolling a Gandalf.