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Beran wrote:I had thought that the Approval/Review Process was part of the Licensing/Legal side of the arragment. So, the delays are more bureaucatic, rather then legal?

... They are part of the standard process though so they aren't issues are they? The slow approval process is something we all know about and it's going to be around for all of the TOR lifespan, past and future.

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Jon and the guys at C7 don't announce products and release dates too early because they have no control over how quickly ME enterprises performs their reviews and approvals.

I don't see what the problem is, we've all known about the complexities and challenges around this process for years now. Nothing has changed.

Yes, I get the complexities of the process...I defended them in the very beginning. What I am questioning is how did the new card game suddenly go from nothing to being released ahead of other projects that have been in the works for the better part of, what is it 2 years?

Did it get moved through the process faster because it is pretty much a simple set of rules, some art and fluff? While the RPG books have to be run through a micron filter to make sure the over all IP is properly protected? I just want to under stand the train of thought here.

Beran wrote: What I am questioning is how did the new card game suddenly go from nothing to being released ahead of other projects that have been in the works for the better part of, what is it 2 years?

Did it get moved through the process faster because it is pretty much a simple set of rules, some art and fluff? While the RPG books have to be run through a micron filter to make sure the over all IP is properly protected? I just want to under stand the train of thought here.

As Jon already indicated:

Jon Hodgson wrote:Card games and rpgs occupy different slots in our production schedule. So no resources in terms of time or budget were taken from Rivendell or Darkening to make Hobbit Tales.

Cards games are more then likely faster to produce as you don't have to write/prepare as much and it's easier to review/approve as you have less material to review.

Besides I see this as a good thing too, as a card game will get a different demographic into the universe, which can increase sales of RPG as some Card gamer are also RPG gamer.

Beran wrote:I had thought that the Approval/Review Process was part of the Licensing/Legal side of the arragment. So, the delays are more bureaucatic, rather then legal?

Indirectly it's legal IMO. Every licensee has to submit his designs and drafts he wants to publish for review to MEE. If they think you wrote or submitted something that is beyond the license, they'll reject it on legal grounds (having no rights to it) and you'll either have to shelve or modify it until it is (after re-submission) within the license.
And this whole process is bureaucratic of course. In a sense, it's both legal and bureaucratic.

Cheers
Tolwen

Beran wrote:

Jon Hodgson wrote:No products in the TOR line are mired in legal issues.

In that case I guess I need clarification on the subject. I was under the impression that the delays were primarily due to licencing issues?

That's not something we are at liberty to discuss - for which as ever I can only apologise. To say however that products were mired in legal issues would be misleading.

I thought that way once as well. Unfortunatly, from my observation card gamers don't usually make the transition to rpgs, unless they were previously involved. Anyway, here's hoping.

I just would have liked some prior indication that Magic: Middle-Earth (sorry, but I really dislike ccgs) was in the offing, that is all. Instead of the shock of seeing it suddenly appear.

Jon Hodgson wrote:

Beran wrote:

Jon Hodgson wrote:No products in the TOR line are mired in legal issues.

In that case I guess I need clarification on the subject. I was under the impression that the delays were primarily due to licencing issues?

That's not something we are at liberty to discuss - for which as ever I can only apologise. To say however that products were mired in legal issues would be misleading.

Ok, now I am really confused. You can't, in general terms, talk about the licensing process?

Beran wrote:I thought that way once as well. Unfortunatly, from my observation card gamers don't usually make the transition to rpgs, unless they were previously involved. Anyway, here's hoping.

I just would have liked some prior indication that Magic: Middle-Earth (sorry, but I really dislike ccgs) was in the offing, that is all. Instead of the shock of seeing it suddenly appear.

It is not a collecting card game though. I think the correct term would to call it a board game and not a card game. Since Jon said no resources were put into this game from the RPG books, I see no point in criticizing it.

Beran,

I suggest a trip to the M-e E website where you will find details of the process by which they approve material for the licence they hold from Professor Tolkien (via a number of intermediate steps).

Note that C7 are not a direct licensee of M-e E, Sophisticated games is, C7 just publish the approved material. If you check the link at M-e E to Sophisticated Games you will see a number of board games relating to the Professor's literary work. This previous body of material is what has allowed SG to design and their sub-licensee, C7, to print/produce TOR with the approval of M=e E.

Marco Maggi and Francesco Nepitello have the design credit for Hobbit Tales and are part of Sophisticated Games. You can see where I'm going with this - C7 provide production resources but writing and game design is outsourced. When a completed manuscript/product is provided by SG to M-e E and approved then physical production can begin. SG don't know how many rewrites M-e E are going to require and C7 don't know how long the printer will take to print and ship from China via the US so giving a date when product becomes available is hard.

Mostly, having learnt their lesson, C7 offer something for pre-order when they send the files to the printer knowing that the physical goods will arrive in about three months. That's about the only firm date they have even the remotest amount of control over and that depends on the ship getting across the Pacific and books being shipped across the Atlantic in a timely manner.

So until C7 put up a pre-order listing for any TOR material your guess as to when it becomes available is as good as anyone else's (excepting SG and C7's) and probably totally incorrect and whining about it doesn't make it happen any faster.

Jon, thank you for listening to our concerns, & for letting us know about the delays & the plans to post a revised release schedule.

For the rest of us, I don't believe that discussing their legal issues is constructive. Most of us are not attorneys & can't influence their production schedules.

That said, however, we're all entitled to our views. I love & support the game & will happily part with my money for the excellent ToR supplements, but the delays are exasperating.

I don't expect them to publish the quantity to match some of the previous Middle-earth games (MERP, LOTR, etc.), but I hope they at least partially increase their future plans for supplements. Middle-earth is a vast canvas with many possibilities for additional supplements.

BTW, a number of people (here & in previous threads) comment that RPGs revolve around our imaginations & that we should write our own material. Hermes Serpent summarizes it well by noting that "the real world" precludes many of us from having the time to develop enough of our own material to carry a game. I just don't have the time as I did in my misspent youth