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If in a combat you are engaged to an enemy, can you select the rearward position? Do you need to unengage the enemy somehow (defeating it, another companion engages it, etc) before selecting that position or even if you are engaged you can move into it provided the rest of the conditions are met?

My reason for the question is because I am unsure If I have been handling engagement rules properly. I check engagement the first round of close combat. Then companions remain engaged to their enemies until these have been defeated. So they cannot freely select another enemy if they are still fighting the original ones in the second round (but new enemies can join the fight, for example enemies that used ranged attacks in the previous round of close combat)

So, although engagement is checked every round, if you are still engaged with enemies you need to fight them and cannot select to attack other ones. And that's what I think you cannot move from close combat stances to rearward stance unless you are unengaged.

Thoughts?

Stance is actually chosen on a round to round basis at the beginning of a character's action, though for ease of use, most folks declare their stance and stay in it. You actually have to qualify for Rearward Stance. If you are engaged with an enemy, you cannot select Rearward Stance.

Rearward Stance has the following requirements (from page 173 of the core):

A character is allowed to assume this stance only if at least two other characters protect him by fighting in a close combat stance, AND if the total number of enemies facing the company isn’t more than twice the number of characters in the company.

on the same page:

If a character finds himself unable to satisfy these requirements at the beginning of a round, he must choose a different stance.

In your example Daedel - an engaged companion could use the Escape Combat task on their action. They have to roll Athletics against a TN determined by 10+ the highest attribute level of the foes they face. (Page 180) If successful they escape combat with whatever foes they are fighting and could, theoretically, engage a new set of enemies on the following round. (A character already in Rearward Stance and unengaged the previous round auto-succeeds in fleeing combat.)

Failure is severe though, in that you effectively give up two attack actions - you spend one round/action disengaging and if you fail, you cannot attack on your next turn/action.

In short - if you are engaged, it is indeed difficult to just "attack other enemies".

T.S. Luikart wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:16 pm

Stance is actually chosen on a round to round basis at the beginning of a character's action, though for ease of use, most folks declare their stance and stay in it. You actually have to qualify for Rearward Stance. If you are engaged with an enemy, you cannot select Rearward Stance.

That's a bit misleading. "If you are engaged with an enemy" only applies once the Engagement phase of close combat occurs. But you choose stances before that. So provided you meet the requirement of having at least two other heroes protect you, and your whole party not being outnumbered two to one, you're free to choose Rearward stance. THEN engagements are decided. This is true even after the first round of combat. Enemies get redistributed every round.

Thanks for the comments! I think stormcrow pointed out something that's normal cause of confusion: when, exactly, do you check engagament rules? Because the way the core is worded it seems it's checked on every round of combat. But that can be a little be confusing too because then again the way engagement is worded, seems you are free to pair yourself with any enemy on any round, leaving the one you were previously attacking. And I don't think that's the intent of the game, since in the core revised there's a little chart, page 174, that estates: "A character is engaged when paired in close combatwith at least one opponent. A combatant remains
engaged until he defeats all opposition. A hero may be simultaneously engaged by up to 3 human-sized opponents, or 2 large creatures (such as Trolls). Enemies may be engaged by up to 3 companions, or 5 in the case of large creatures"

So for me this works this way: engagement is checked every round and only applies to companions / creatures currently unengaged at the beginning of that round (if outnumbered by enemies, the loremaster selects first, if not, the other way round). If companions are still engaged they have to keep on fighting original enemies (but new enemies not engaged can join them). So to follow stormcrows order of combat, at the beginning of the round you first check if you are engaged or not, then select stances, then check engagement for creatures NOT previously engaged, then combat. That's the way I've always thought it worked, at least.

I think daedel has it for the most part, except that stances are chosen before engagement is determined. In the first round, you can choose to enter rearward stance as long as you meet the requirements regarding numbers of companions.

But once you are engaged with an enemy, you can't simply change that at will ("A combatant remains engaged until he defeats all opposition"). So if you're engaged by 2 enemies, you must defeat them both before you can choose to move into rearward, or to engage a different enemy.



(Sorry if you saw the first version of this post, I typed a lot of nonsense and had to heavily edit it!)

Earendil you are right, just to clarify: my first part of the combat order in previous post doesn't mean "check engagement" but "check who remains engaged or not", so you can select freely rearward position if the other conditions are met. Then select stances, then check engagement as per engagement rules of the book.

As a side note, I would allow to "break" engagement rules if monsters > companions if a companion successfully uses Escape Combat. In that particular case I'd allow the companion to engage any enemy available.

daedel wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Earendil you are right, just to clarify: my first part of the combat order in previous post doesn't mean "check engagement" but "check who remains engaged or not", so you can select freely rearward position if the other conditions are met. Then select stances, then check engagement as per engagement rules of the book.

Ah yes, sorry. I misunderstood you there.

As a side note, I would allow to "break" engagement rules if monsters > companions if a companion successfully uses Escape Combat. In that particular case I'd allow the companion to engage any enemy available.

I agree (and I believe you can do so whether you're outnumbered or not). And I think that's what TS was saying, as well. If you escape combat, of course all engagements are broken. And as far as I can see, you can then re-enter combat, engaging any enemy you wish (though the ones you broke off from could of course also re-engage you). Though AIUI, escaping combat takes your action for that round, so you wouldn't be able to re-enter combat till the next round.

Aha! That chart on page 174 changes (or clarifies) the rules from the first edition. You're absolutely correct: each combatant's engagement remains in effect once enacted.

I appear to be a bit late to the party, but here's my tuppence worth on a Rearward Stance.

My preference is to continue with First Edition interpretation.

Escape Combat is not used to escape from a specific foe, but to escape from a general combat zone(or at least, that's my interpretation of it). In other words, once Escape Combat is utilised, you are out of the fight altogether and heading for the hills. The implication is not that you can use it to your advantage to jump in and out of a battle.

I have noted the existence of the table on page 174 of 2nd Ed on earlier posts on this thread and considered the implications that it has for the game from the storytelling perspective that I prefer. I, personally, don't like it and intend to stick with the more abstract first edition.

To me, TOR fights should be fluid and geared towards storytelling rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae of who can attack who and the attritional style of combat adopted by other games.

Two characters in a Close Combat Stance and the enemy not being more than twice the number of characters is the determining factor in all normal situations where a Rearward Stance might be considered. For me at least, this rule trumps all others.

A typical encounter from my games might run as follows.

Three Bardings are investigating an abandoned farm in the narrows to the north of Mirkwood when they are beset by a raiding party of nine Orcs.

One of the Bardings prefers the bow while his two companions are swordsmen. Neither side suffers from surprise, but there is a waterlogged drainage ditch between the two groups of combatants.

The Orcs immediately charge across the ditch to attack their less numerous foes. The LM decides that the ditch presents a hindrance to the Orcs and awards two Opening Volleys to the Bardings.

The opening volleys of arrows and thrown spears claim the lives of two of the attackers before the remaining seven have come to grips with the Bardings. The Bardings have suffered no injuries from returning missiles during the Opening Volley phase.

The Bardings now Test for Combat Advantages.

The Bardings have Initiative as the Orcs are the aggressors but the Orcs outnumber them by more than two to one. The Bardings attack first but the Barding bowman cannot take a Rearward Stance and is forced to draw his sword to engage the Orcs in melee. The LM assigns three Orcs to the first swordsman and two orcs each to the second swordsman and the bowman.

The second swordsman manages to fell one of the Orcs in the first round of Combat and at the end of that round, the three Bardings have sustained only minor bumps and bruises.

In Combat Round 2, the 'basic rule' is now met that the Archer can enter Rearward Stance if he now chooses. He has two companions in close combat stances and there are only six remaining Orcs. They are no longer outnumbered by more than two to one.

The player or LM narratively describes how the situation changes, that the two swordsmen are fending off the six Orcs by virtue of the threat that they present to them and that the Archer has managed to manoeuvre himself into a position where he can use his great bow.

No need for making up additional rules in First Ed. Just use the rules as written and utilise the appropriate narrative to explain the changed situation.

The Combat stances don't represent static positions in a toe to toe fight. Allowing for fluidity and movement between the combatants makes the Combat Advantage Dice easier to narrate.

Halbarad wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:50 pm

Escape Combat is not used to escape from a specific foe, but to escape from a general combat zone(or at least, that's my interpretation of it). In other words, once Escape Combat is utilised, you are out of the fight altogether and heading for the hills. The implication is not that you can use it to your advantage to jump in and out of a battle.

I don't really disagree with you, and it's not something that's ever actually come up in my games, but once a character is out of the fight, I can't see any good justification for telling them they can't re-enter it if they want. Escaping takes them a round, so it's not like they're getting it for free.

As for your combat example, the only point on which I disagree is that I wouldn't allow the archer to change to rearward stance while still fighting an orc (or two). Not just because that's what the revised rules say, but because it actually makes sense to me: you have an orc slashing at you, you can't just draw your bow and move away into a suitable position for archery. And your friends are already busy fighting their orcs and can't do some sort of tag-team manoeuvre to take on yours as well and somehow distract them from you long enough to let you get away. I might allow them to do so with an Athletics or Battle roll, though.

But I would say that if one of them manages to take down all his orcs, he could then move over and engage yours, and that might well allow you to move into rearward.