Fatigue limit?

[Indur Dawndeath]

My take on this, use it if you want, it works for my group.

Fatigue > endurance max = Spent*

Spent, inspired by Spent from RAW when you are at zero Hope.
=Unable to initiate actions and will flee engagements. Spent Characters will not carry Any gear or treasure.

If a lot of treasure (encumbrance above Maximum endurance) is carried, then I would increase the fatigue from travel to a reasonable amount. Or require Athletics teste to move the load. Failed tests result in fatigue.

This is to prevent the scenario, where players "give up on fatigue" and just accept Weary.

My players had discarded helmets, shelds and secondary weapons, when they went after the Children in Nightmare of Angmar, to stay hale for the final confrontation.
A lot of effort was put into the journey and it was great fun and very rewarding to succeed in the end!

Cheers

[atgxtg]

Technically, I don't think a character can carry more gear than their MAX END. In the rules it states:

As a general rule, an adventurer can carry gear with a total
Encumbrance up to the character’s maximum Endurance
rating.

That should prevent someone from exceeding their MAX END under most circumstances.

Note that when one is so loaded, sure they're wearied.

Let's take a situation from a session I ran a few years ago. (I happen to have the character sheet handy.)

Jim's dwarf was carrying 18 Enc of his 31 end.
Jim had a run of bad luck. 7 failed tests in winter (this was 1E, so that's +14). Total fatigue 32.
The party finds a hoard. Jim grabs 13 treasure points - his enc is now 31. But his fatigue was now 45. He's weary, and will be for a good while after finding a sanctuary... but there's no disincentive for him dragging that 13 treasure point additional haul, since not carrying it won't make him un-wearied. He loses nothing. And, since he's going to go home for the rest of the winter, he won't waste any hope passing any travel rolls. His total fatigue at end of story was over 60!

Note that, under 2E, he'd have been 19 of 31, and would have added 21, as it was a late fall adventure, and the additional 20 would have be an additional 30, so he'd have ended at over 70.

Without some penalty for excess fatigue, we'll continue to see things like this. (That wasn't the only time he was fatigue over max end, just the worst case. It was traveling from Lonely Mountain to Rivendell, running into october.

I think your missing the obvious here.By the RAW once Jim's character's Fatigue exceeded his Max END he can't carry the load he has, and must get rid of some equipment.

[Falenthal]

As atgxtg points out, I don't see the problem with the rule he quoted. It makes sense and is easy to apply.

I would even go as far as to limit the amount of Fatigue a character can have to his maximum Endurance.

Jim's dwarf was carrying 18 Enc of his 31 end.
Jim had a run of bad luck. 7 failed tests in winter (this was 1E, so that's +14). Total fatigue 32.

My take on Jim's dwarf example would be this: after all those failed Fatigue tests, he maxs out his Fatigue score at 31, even if more Fatigue tests are made and failed.
After that, he can't pick up any more objects or Treasure that have an Encumbrance rating: not a short sword, not 1 point of Treasure, nothing. When he finds those 13 points of Treasure, he simply can't take it with him.

Unless he drops his armour, for example, rests for a night, reduces his starting (and total) Fatigue, and has some margin to carry some Treasure.

[atgxtg]

As atgxtg points out, I don't see the problem with the rule he quoted. It makes sense and is easy to apply.

I would even go as far as to limit the amount of Fatigue a character can have to his maximum Endurance.

Playing Melkor's advocate here for a minute. While I did quote what is in the rules, I'm not all that convinced that it does make sense. I doubt someone could become so tired that they couldn't pick up a sword or a gold coin. But I could certainly see them being so tired that they would have to stop and rest- or at the least risk falling asleep/passing out. So I could understand a rule where somebody who maxed out his fatigue has to make a test to avoid unconsciousness.

But, yeah, by the rules, there is not problem with exceeding Max END because you normally can't do it.

[Falenthal]

I doubt someone could become so tired that they couldn't pick up a sword or a gold coin.

I know what you mean, but that's always the case with all rules in RPGs, isn't it?
We have to set up a certain threshold where we accept is all-or-nothing at some point.

See for example the Fatigue tests themselves: if you roll a 13, you might get 3 Travel Fatigue points; but if you roll a 14, you get 0.
Or an attack can do 7 Damage or nothing, but not 2 or 4 points of Damage.
And we are ok with it.
Why isn't there a more granular progression, for example? Well, IMO, the answer is basically "because it's easier to remember and play this way" [Have you played Rolemaster system? It was hell...].

I think when I said "makes sense" I was referring as a game rule, not as a simulation of real life. I don't think (and that's my opinion, based on my style of playing), that adding rules to consider the "overweight problem" would improve the fun of the game. At least, not for me.

Also, remember that Encumbrance is not only "weight", it also includes how easy is to carry something or how annoying is to carry it. Maybe the dwarf has no more bags, pockets and backpacks to carry all that treasure.

[aramis]

ATGXTG - you're conflating Encumbrance and fatigue.

Encumbrance is limited to Maximum End. Fatigue is (by the rules as written) not. Fatigue is from three sources... one of which is encumbrance. But fatigue doesn't actually increase encumbrance. Travel fails and encounter fails increase fatigue not end.

See page 110, § "How Encumbrance Works" of 2E core:
"As a general rule, an adventurer can carry gear with a total Encumbrance up to the character’s maximum Endurance rating."

It's not a limit on fatigue, but on maximum encumbrance total. Fatigue earned by other means is not so limited.

[atgxtg]

Oops, my bad. I checked the rules and you're right. Since fatigue is tracked separately from Endurance it's quite possible for it to exceed Max END.

There is a drawback to an ultra high fatigue score, though. The character will be weary for that much longer. A character might need to rest for a week or more to get his Fatigue back down below his Endurance, and that's assuming he isn't wounded.

I think if that matter or not will depend on how the adventures are written. If the heroes get some chances to rest for a few days here and there, then that extra treasure might make the difference between being weary or not.

If you want to add an additional penalty of some sort,it is possible to hurt yourself by lifting and carrying too much weight. You could use the excess Fatigue as a potential Injury. I could certainly see someone getting a sprain, pulling a muscle, pinching a nerve, or even brining on a heart attack from hauling around too much stuff while in a wearied state.

[atgxtg]

I know what you mean, but that's always the case with all rules in RPGs, isn't it?
We have to set up a certain threshold where we accept is all-or-nothing at some point.

Not always but certainly often. But it reminds me of someone getting killed by the 1 point hit to the foot.

[aramis]

Oops, my bad. I checked the rules and you're right. Since fatigue is tracked separately from Endurance it's quite possible for it to exceed Max END.

There is a drawback to an ultra high fatigue score, though. The character will be weary for that much longer. A character might need to rest for a week or more to get his Fatigue back down below his Endurance, and that's assuming he isn't wounded.

Cart before the horse, there.

The type of player doing this is, in my experience, also the guy trying called shots every time, because he's almost always weary. Not sometimes. Almost ALL THE TIME. He doesn't care about recovery because he's not going to recover from weary within the scope of the adventure. He doesn't worry about travel rolls - because he's not going to recover it anyway, and the first hit in combat always makes him weary even at the start. So he soaks up the fatigue prodigiously... because there is no penalty to doing so.

Recovery time thus does not matter, as he's never going to recover during play.

[Angelalex242]

How about this? Being Weary multiple phases in a row is like...slave labor, of sorts.

So for every adventure phase you remain weary, reduce maximum hope by one until you fully recover.

This lets somebody become miserable or spent by carrying too much stuff.