forums.cubicle7.co.uk
archive

Finnian wrote:I do have to thank you for one thing though, convincing me that I need not bother to check back month to month to see what's been released and whether to pick up the rest of the line.

Hang on a minute. You're making this decision based on a post of a non-C7 representative (ie, Hermes Serpent)? I dunno, the attitudes you've expressed in your previous posts here and this one don't seem to match up with other RPG writers I know. Not saying you're fibbing about working in the industry but I'm struggling to comprehend why someone how has admitted to stating they think TOR's "... writing is superb and the art and design are in the top five of the industry...", will not buy each product on it's own merits and instead washes their hands of it. RPGers, and especially writers, buy products for active and out-of-print lines because, you know, they love the content and want to read it. Like I've said previously, there's more than enough adventure to be had in the exceptional products that C7 have already released. To not buy those because you are not convinced by the longevity of the line, even though you think it is an amazing game, sounds like you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. This kind of attitude just seems weird for someone that (a) states they think the game is superb and (b) also has experience of the RPG industry.

I wasn't going to answer this as I don't think I need to justify what I will or won't spend my money on. Or what games I will or won't pour time into to anyone but given it's somewhat germane to the original criticism in the first place.

I don't buy RPG books just to read anymore. With two ongoing campaigns at any one point, together with job/life etc. I made the decision a couple of years ago to only pick up RPG books for games I'm definitely going to run, something my creaking bookshelves appreciate.

I was always more interested in the putative second box set in the line than the initial one, and while I'm sure I could run TOR as is, it's not the campaign or time period that interest me most at the moment. As such I've been waiting for other products to come along in support of the campaign(s) I want to run.

As that doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon, I don't need to keep checking back. Further to this, I found the dismissive 'if you don't like it then STFU' attitude of Hermes Serpent thoroughly put me off having any real desire to continue to encounter it. There are plenty of games out there with the same high standards of writing and layout/design. Eclipse Phase, L5R 4th Edition and Star Wars by FFG are all equally 'pretty' as pieces of layout and design, though I'd probably only stick the first two in the same level of writing. Likewise GUMSHOE while being more functional in artistic design, has excellent writing and support (and one of the same writers, in Gareth Hanrahan).

So given TOR's release schedule, that it doesn't support the game I want to run as yet, that there are plenty of other companies putting out excellent product I want to buy, and that the toxic 'STFU' attitude made me uninterested in continuing to encounter it here, I realised there was no value for me in 'waiting' for the products I wanted. I can either do it myself, or just keep running other games with better support.

I have to, again, say I agree with Finnian on one of his points. I too am much more interested in the information that would have been presented in the 2nd and 3rd original format box sets, then I am in the current time period and setting. I get what the planning idea for TOR is; starting with "the deep breath before the plunge", but I have to admit I find myself struggling to come up with ideas for the game in the current setting where, currently, very little happens (thank the Valar for DoM). As well I am playing/running in a ME that doesn't have my personal favourite population group, Rohan, officially represented.

Now, I maybe in the very small minority of RPGers here, but I can see where this and the slow flow of supplements could turn gamers off the game. Even though it is a fantastic piece of writing and artwork. The next time I am in my friends shop I will ask about the lack ot TOR support, particularly given then number of other C7 games represented in his shop.

Also, my friend is a hard core RPer. So, he brings in what is interesting as much as what will turn over quickly. The other store is more to the other side of the coin.

Finian seems to think he's an 'average punter' as posted about in my response to the whining found on this thread. Funny that, I didn't specify all punters are uninformed about RPG publishing for a particular reason. Wonder why he's so defensive. But unlike Rich I don't give a sh** about how important he thinks he is. I don't go around boasting about what I've had published because it's not relevant to C7 and their licence.

I hear what both Finnian and Beran are saying and agree to a large extent.

Some folks here need to check their hostility at the door. You can recognize the value of the product and still lament the glacial pace of releases, cant you? It's called being 'nuanced'.

I am neither a fanboy nor a detractor. But I do think the laser-focus of the product line (high-quality but sporadic releases, very limited geographical area, constrained ethnicities/races, etc...) may ultimately hurt its longevity.

In general, you will always encounter people in forums that you clash with. No biggie, just roll with it. Hermes Serpent is nothing more than another RPGer here. Sometimes he posts great stuff and sometimes he does not, but do not take his words so seriously. It is better for your mood, really. Took a while to figure out that for myself until I realized how stupid it was for me to be annoyed by a comment from a guy living in Singapur

I do the same as Finnian here: I am starting not to buy many RPGs. Except Ars Magica, but that is because I have all the books in the line and it is a sort of collection for me I find this to be a sensible option.

IMO TOR is a good game. Especially the setting and adventures are very good. I think the rules are OK-ish (not counting the poor wording and bad organization of the core book regarding rules), but that is me. In setting it surpasses most games out there by a long shot. If you like that, it is an amazing game. The 5 books published so far can cover up to a century worth of adventuring, so the setting in fact has enough gaming material already for you to run a really long storyline. So the release speed has been slow, but you do not really need more material than what has been published (that is what? 800 pages of material already?) to run a long story there

By line decision (no idea id this is because middle earth enterprises forced it, I giuess not but no idea) it is set in a specific time and locale in ME, so it does not cover every area of the map-I am OK with that, but if you want to play stories in Fornost or the east-mark I think the existing material can be adapted quite OK as well, even if it requires more work.

Have fun and beware of the Shadow!

Cheers,
Xavi

Everything you say is true, Elmoth. However, if I take the time to create the rules for the cultures and do the write ups for the regions I really want to play in then I may as well have sat down and done my own game. TOR is the first game that I have used unofficial material in almost 30 years of being in the hobby. As a rule fan based stuff just isnt that good, or just went against the way I saw things in the setting. Thankfully, Rich H and his mates are are talented people who came up with top flight information for those of us who would like to expand the game beyond the Wildland a bit.

Hermes Serpent wrote: Should c7 go down the MERP road and start putting out material that is not properly approved they would find it so much easier to get slapped by M-e E with the ability of search engines to index the Internet.

I'm also glad they're not going down the MERP road and producing reams of stats blocks, dungeons & dragons style descriptions, and amateur artwork. I'll take quality over quantity, tyvm.

Finnian's stance is perfectly valid, and I'm sure others share it. He's already in some committing campaigns, he doesn't buy RPGs just to read, and he likes to have a steady flow of material. That's all fine.

I have to wonder, though, why he's so angry about it. (Shadow points aside.) Why does he keep posting if he has dismissed the game and there are many, many other options out there that meet his release schedule demands?

Something tells me TOR isn't quite so easily replaced, even for him, by those other fine products he mentioned. He may be too mad to come around again, but I think it's indicative of TOR's special appeal.

I think the focus of TOR is one of its strengths. The Tolkien licence is a bit of a double-edged sword when it comes to RPGs; it's got the odd combination of being the inspiration, directly or otherwise, for most of the fantasy RPGs out there, while also being a setting that is utterly dominated by a specific set of stories. Most gamers I've spoken to have tried running or playing a Middle-earth game at some point and all of them have come to the conclusion that it doesn't really work. You're either in the way/shadow of the Fellowship of the Ring, or you end up with a game that feels like every other fantasy game you've played in, but with a few specific nods to Tolkien. That's where the enormity of his influence in the genre comes in; if you're playing a Middle-earth game that avoids being a greatest hits tour of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, there's rarely much to distinguish it from every other pseudo-medieval fantasy with elves, dwarves, halflings and orcs.

TOR has got me, and the rest of my gaming group, excited about role-playing in Tolkien's world for two main reasons. Firstly, it's because the rules have clearly been built from the ground up to fit the content and tone of the books. The emphasis on journeys, the rules for hope and becoming weary, the fact that smoking and twice-baked honey cakes are desirable character attributes; they're all huge indicators that the designers understand and respect the source material. They're rules that encourage an inherently Tolkien-esque game.

The other big factor is the focus on a specific area at a specific time. It's clear that it's been deliberately chosen to offer instant familiarity for those who have read the books or seen the films; the people and places players encounter will be recognisable in a way that a game set in a different time or place wouldn't. At the same time, it avoids the actual events of the books so the heroes are never going to be overshadowed by existing characters. Sure, Gandalf and Aragorn are running around doing important things, but the players' escapades can be just as, if not more, important in a way that wouldn't be possible while Frodo and chums were going on a very long walk.