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Rich H wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:11 pm

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:52 pm

I don't have Laketown handy...does it allow anybody to gather herbs, or just those with Herb-lore?

Anybody can but someone with Herb-lore it lets them pick any herb except Red Water-lily. I've used the same rule in my tables. Kurt didn't create these tables though, so I'm not sure what discussion you're referring to.

I meant that when Kurt was creating his rules we discussed a similar approach: gathering isn't restricted to those with Herb-lore; they just get an advantage.

And now I remember more about it: I was suggesting that unlike the Laketown rules the Herb-lore advantage be unpredictable, in order to mitigate powergaming.

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:19 pm

And now I remember more about it: I was suggesting that unlike the Laketown rules the Herb-lore advantage be unpredictable, in order to mitigate powergaming.

I see!

In my experience, a system shouldn't focus on mitigating powergaming at the expense of doing interesting things; if players play that way then the type of gaming that TOR promotes isn't really for them. In other words, game design shouldn't be based on 'a race to the bottom' where all players are assumed to be power-gamers unless that's something a designer wants to focus on and use within their setting - eg, Exalted-style or Martial Arts games are great fodder for this kind of thing and could well be designed based on the intent that players look for optimal combat builds etc. However, I'm not sure I really see anything in Kurt's work that would break the game - he has a nice blend of skill and trait usage that bring different things to the table, from what I can remember, and use of specific traits only provide options for invocation when healing etc; I don't see at any point that he allows anyone with herb-lore to, for example, make a roll on any herb foraging list (during the Adventuring Phase). Perhaps I'm not remembering it fully... ?

Also, I don't necessarily agree with the system premise that if you provide enhanced rules for one skill/trait/etc then you need to equally do the same for all others. I can see a lot of mileage in games like TOR where it is of benefit to provide more interesting options or mechanics to specific skills and/or traits than to others. By doing so, a designer/LM is bringing such things front and centre to their game and making them of more importance than other 'secondary' elements. Its similar to making some skills cheaper to buy/improve if they are vital (or a focus) to the game - eg, in an action-based game weapon skills could be made cheaper to increase than other skills in order to signal to players that these are commonly used or vital to the game in question.

EDIT: Just offering some additional thoughts with that last paragraph.

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:40 am

(Dear O-S and Tolwen: Regarding the above, I have no idea where Athelas is found or in what season or whether it's a tree or a bush or a vine or decorative ground-cover.)

Glorelendil, here is the passage where Aragorn locates some athelas at Weathertop:

From the pouch at [Strider's] belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant.

'These leaves,' he said, 'I have walked far to find; for this plant does not grow in the bare hills; but in the thickets away south of the Road I found it in the dark by the scent of its leaves.' He crushed a leaf in his fingers, and it gave out a sweet and pungent fragrance. 'It is fortunate that I could find it, for it is a healing plant that the Men of the West brought to Middle-earth. Athelas they named it, and it grows now sparsely and only near places where they dwelt or camped of old; and it is not known in the North, except to some of those who wander in the Wild. It has great virtues, but over such a wound as this its healing powers may be small.'

He threw the leaves into boiling water and bathed Frodo's shoulder. The fragrance of the steam was refreshing, and those that were unhurt felt their minds calmed and cleared. The herb had also some power over the wound, for Frodo felt the pain and also the sense of frozen cold lessen in his side; but the life did not return to his arm, and he could not raise or use his hand.

We don't find a detailed description of the appearance of athelas, though it seems to have a long growing season. Frodo is wounded on the sixth day of October. The athelas that the boy Bergil brings to Aragorn after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields on March 15 (of the following year) was cut about two weeks earlier.

For what it's worth, here is an illustration by John Howe that depicts some living athelas:

Treat herbs or really any object that should provide some sort of benefit as if they are a trait, which can be invoked when you use the object. Such use can invoke an automatic action, an unforeseen action, or an advancement point.

For instance, a hero who has athelas...

Loremaster: "Ketill has been stabbed by an evil knife that will turn him into a wraith in about a week. He can't stand and is barely conscious."

Evermud: "We have to get to him to Radagast. Can I treat his wound to get him on his feet, maybe even cure him?"

Loremaster: "Even with your Healing skill of 3, you know you don't have the skill to help him."

Evermud: "Wait! I have some athelas. I'll invoke an unforeseen action to get a Healing roll."

The Loremaster agrees, and Evermud steeps some athelas in boiling water, then rolls a great success. The Loremaster decides Ketill comes to full consciousness and can walk haltingly. His life is still in danger, and he still has to be cured within a week. Evermud used up all his athelas doing this.

Rich H wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:32 pm

In my experience, a system shouldn't focus on mitigating powergaming at the expense of doing interesting things;

Totally agree! Aaaannnd...I think both goals can often be accomplished simultaneously. You can certainly make "look for herbs" an interesting activity without enabling powergaming. That's why, for example, I advocated "roll twice with Herb-lore" instead of "choose any result from the table." You still get to search for herbs as an undertaking, Herb-lore still provides a benefit, but you can't know for certain that you'll have access to Herb X for the next Adventure.

However, I'm not sure I really see anything in Kurt's work that would break the game

It's possible that's at least in part because we had a big discussion about exactly this topic after his first draft.

P.S. I like Stormcrow's suggestion as well. That makes "Look for Herbs" an undertaking similar to other ones that give you a bonus trait for the next adventure.

This may be of interest with regards to herbs and plants of Middle Earth, though it only comes out next month:
https://www.amazon.com/Flora-Middle-Ear ... 1_1&sr=8-1

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:47 pm

However, I'm not sure I really see anything in Kurt's work that would break the game

It's possible that's at least in part because we had a big discussion about exactly this topic after his first draft.

Hi All,

Yes, I don't think my document breaks the game either. And as mentioned above, this was due to a review process and a number of revisions. So I must thank Glorlendil, Rich, Zedturtle and Winterwolf for reviewing it and providing initial feedback as well as number of others in this community that provided some great input after it was posted up. TOR seems to create a story during gameplay in a unique way through its rule system - it's a wonderful thing. I tried hard to respect the work that Cubicle 7 have done in creating TOR by not altering the rules too much. Instead I focused on providing additional explanatory material, guidance and examples.

If someone feels the document does "break the game" free to point out where there is room for improvement by placing a comment in the Herbs and Healing post in the House Rules section. I'm not too precious about the document and I'm happy to modify it if the suggestions make sense and add value.

I haven't included some of the things that have been requested (specific herbs, geographical locations etc) largely due to focusing on other matters in my life, but also because I want to give it my best effort with a role playing first approach that matches the way the core rule book is written. I haven't spent any time looking at how to do that. Additionally, there are other documents in the forums with a lot of information including herb lists that are really good.

Cheers,
Kurt

Scrolling up there was some commentary on whether on not anyone can look for herbs and if the Herb-Lore trait is required to do so. Here is my take on that ...

Herbs and Healing wrote:Only a character who is proficient in Herb-Lore or Herbal Remedies understands what the right medicinal plant looks, smells and taste like. They are able to find these plants and put them to good use through salves, broths and elixirs.

So whilst anyone can look for herbs, finding the correct medicinal plants which speed up recovery or form part of the ingredients required for an antidote is another matter. I'm pretty sure that I could identify rosemary, mint, basil and sage if I came across it out in the wild or the local supermarket ... but there is no way I'd be able to identify a plant that has medicinal properties, let alone process it in the correct manner as to actually craft up some medicine.

In the roleplaying game Hugo (my character) could teach other characters about a plant ...

Hugo wrote:You see this plant here? It has five leaves and a purple flower, it's great for pain relief. I can use it to make up some biscuits too. If you see any please cut it like this so as not to damage the leaves or the flower head.

... so others can learn about plants. How to select and cut them can be learnt relatively quickly, but teaching/learning about creating medicine and remedies from herbs and other chemicals would take a condsiderable amount of time. Herb-Lore is as much a vocation as Smith-craft, Woodright or Minstrelsy. There is nothing trivial about the creation and application of herbal medicine, it takes years of study and practice.

That is how I treat Herb-lore in the game.

Cheers,
Kurt

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:47 pm

It's possible that's at least in part because we had a big discussion about exactly this topic after his first draft.

True dat.

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:47 pm

P.S. I like Stormcrow's suggestion as well. That makes "Look for Herbs" an undertaking similar to other ones that give you a bonus trait for the next adventure.

Me three.