Post
by SirKicley » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:53 pm
As someone who has played D&D (now Pathfinder) across all editions since 1982 and now thoroughly loves TOR, I feel I can answer your questions and concerns with a modicum of authority on the subject. My players and I too have gone through similar growing pains with TOR. Many of my friends in my gaming circle don’t have as storied past rooted in D&D’s earlier editions; but those who have (including myself) do remember the game being played as a more narrated free-form game with a lot less rules and tactics.
The advent of 3rd edition and married the rules to the use of miniatures increased the rules base significantly, removed the NEED (though not necessarily removed the existence) of free form playing and narrating and adlibbed story-telling. The inclusion of RFE (rules for everything) allowed many players who are not as comfortable coming off the cuff with adlibbed narrative style roleplaying to enjoy the game with friends with a standardized and easily enforced set of balancing rules.
TOR harkens back to earlier D&D days without all of those. The players I have that enjoy the story telling aspect, and the build of an epic story line, and learning the world, and enjoying the portrayal of a character in the midst of it, and the development of the character from a storyline perspective enjoy TOR the most. I have others who prefer Pathfinder/D&D new editions because their biggest love of gaming is the tactical combats, and optimizing building of their characters, seeing them advance in levels and becoming more powerful. They find TOR less appealing – BUT still enjoy the game because it is the best game at what it does.
Combat can still be tactical, though. You can learn to employ certain tactics like which stance to be in, how much armor do you wish to wear to become potentially WEARY but not WOUNDED vs how much weapon skills did you apply vs how aggressive you need/want your stance to be to risk becoming WEARY etc.
HOWEVER, it was succinctly put – that in D&D (which for the purposes of this post, will mean 3rd edition and beyond along w/ Pathfinder unless otherwise specified), your benefits come in numerical form based on the actions you succeed at. SUCH AS: moving in a flank, charging, getting higher ground, casting a BLESS spell, having a bard sing morale song, purchasing a +1 sword or casting MAGIC WEAPON spell, activating Smite Evil, or Raging.).
The primary difference is this: In D&D you typically state what your doing, and the dice are rolled, end of story. In TOR, roll the dice first, THEN narrate the action based on the adjudication of the dice.
SEE BELOW for snippets of narrated differences:
D&D:
DM: Bill, it’s your turn in initiative. What do you do.
PLAYER: I take a 5 ft step, I’m now flanking the bugbear with Tom, and so I make both my attacks with +2. I have +12 and +7 on my attacks (rolls dice 11 and 19); attacking with my longsword +1. I hit AC 23 with the first attack and 26 with the second.
DM: you hit the bugbear both times. Roll damage.
PLAYER: Uh….I have +1 from the sword and +3 from my strength, I rolled a 5 and 2 on my dice so that’s 9 and 6 damage for 15.
DM: you slay the bugbear with your second swing.
Here’s another
DM: Only one guard at the end of the bridge stands between you and the lever that must be pulled to open the gate and allow your companions to enter the stronghold. The guard looks heavily armed and armored. His stance and grizzled look is telling that he is no rookie to combat.
PLAYER (Rogue): Hmm I can’t risk attacking him and not killing him fast enough before he sends out an alarm. I will sneak down the embankment under the cover of the bushes to look under the bridge for a more stealthy way across. Does the bridge have crossbeams or anything. Do they look sturdy?
DM: Yes there are beams; give me a Knowledge Engineering roll to see if you think it’s safe to use them.
PLAYER: I’m a rogue – not a bard. I don’t have that skill.
DM: As far as you know – it’s safe, then.
PLAYER: I’ll use the underbeams and stealthily crawl up under the bridge, past the guard and to the other side then will try to get up the other embankment.
DM: Okay you’ll need a Stealth check and a Climb check DC 15.
PLAYER: I rolled a 17 for my climb – no problemo! AH crap I rolled a 1 on my Stealth Check.
DM: You make it across, but you rattle the beam, and the guard hears you and starts shouting.
[all the preps for nothing due to a bad dice roll – even though the player was fully “roleplaying” his part.]
TOR Examples
LM: The goblins are making a mad charge, trying to overwhelm you with numbers, trying to surround you. You stand in the middle of the forest in a small clearing. Their snarls are the only things you hear as your heart pounds in your chest. Roll your Battle skill checks
[Dice rolled; stances chosen]
Bill in Forward Stance: My elf hero Kaerthoryn wielding a yew spear of elven wood once prominently used in the battle of five armies begs to taste goblin blood once more. I charge at the wave of goblins crying out an elven curse directed at them.
[ROLLS DICE]
LM: You need to hit TN: 9.
BILL: [got an 8 – spending a battle point]: Kaerthoryn rushes past his comrades ducks under a branch and aims his spear for the first unlucky goblin, the goblin thinking himself clever to bring up his weapon to block me but my Battle skill pays off, I strategically use a fallen log and spring atop it using the momentum from leaping off the log, at the goblin my spear easily pushes past his weak parry and I drive it home, my spear spilling goblin blood once again!
TOM from Defensive: Seeing the large number of goblins, Skaldir my dwarf, puts his shield in front of himself to ready for the assault. I back up slightly looking for an incline to defend from, making sure to keep the goblins off of Rick (the archer in rearward)
AFTER GOBLIN rolls, LM scores an edge rating and a protection roll by the hobbit narrowly fails. The player however states:
RICK: Due to the luck of battle, Dornwise ducks behind a particularly large tree that I strategically placed at my flank and use it to help deflect the goblin blow (Battle dice assists success with the Protection Test Roll).
ON THE BRIDGE:
LM: Only one guard at the end of the bridge stands between you and the lever that must be pulled to open the gate and allow your companions to enter the stronghold. The guard looks heavily armed and armored. His stance and grizzled look is telling that he is no rookie to combat.
PLAYER: Hmm I can’t risk attacking him and not killing him fast enough before he sends out an alarm. I will sneak down the embankment under the cover of the bushes to look under the bridge for a more stealthy way across. Does the bridge have crossbeams or anything. Do they look sturdy?
LM: The bridge has seen an age or more, but it was built by the dwarves of Erebor when they renown for being the greatest of craftsmen in Middle-earth. You have no doubt that the bridge will stand for another age if not deliberately destroyed. We’re going to work this as a skill test. You will need 5 successes before you can safely and successfully cross the bridge undetected; at least 2 for athletics, and at least 2 for stealth. Three failures however mean you cannot manage it.
PLAYER: I am a hobbit of the Shire, inspired by the tales of Bilbo Baggins himself. He could pass by a sleeping dragon undetected. Like him I am “stealthy” even compared to most hobbits. A lone guard who hears only the running water beneath the bridge cannot hear one as stealthy as I. (invoking a Stealthy trait – auto success 1).
[Player rolls two more Stealth checks – failing one, and succeeding at the other]
LM: Half way across, your foot pushes against a creaking beam, it begins to creak out a telltale sign that there may be something amiss.
PLAYER: I spend a Hope Point – The thoughts of my companions comes to my mind as I contemplate the risk of failing. I cannot leave them vulnerable to capture. Inspired by my journeys with my Woodman companion, I immediately mimic the sound of a bird blending in the sound of the creaking beam. (added Attribute bonus from hope succeeds)
LM: As the fates would have it, a nearby loon hears your call, and joins the song flying nearby, easily masking the sound. You believe the guard is unsuspicious at this point, but perhaps a bit annoyed by the bird. (pointing to the last dice roll) You manage to remain quiet, even taking into consideration to not allow your shadow to be seen.
PLAYER: Now for the Athletics. Tests. Oh no, an EYE! (second roll) YES! A Greater Success!
LM: You are nearly there, the end is in sight. You reach for crossbeam and fail to notice how slippery it was. Your grip loosens, and you nearly tumble to a watery death. You catch yourself, hold your breath, fearing you were heard. (Points to the EYE). You manage to right yourself, but your pouch of Longbottom Leaf has dislodges itself from you pocket you feel it slipping.
PLAYER: Perhaps a lesser hobbit – not there are such things as lesser hobbits just hobbits not nearly as more as myself, would perhaps have not the knowledge or wherewithal to protect such prescious cargo such as the greatest pipe weed in the four farthings, but I do not merely smoke pipeweed, I am an expert at it really (referring to the Smoking trait). I am always sure to sew the string of the pouch into the inner linings of my waistcoat, and though it is dislodged, it cannot fall.
{the other players all nod and smile and cheer agreeably – obviously entertained by his cleverly roleplayed trait}
LM: Well done, master hobbit. You silently thank your uncle who taught you the finer arts of smoking as you remember your sacred leaf is safe for now. (pointing to the greater success – still needing two Athletics tests to make it). Spurred on by a bit of adrenaline for your near-catastrophe and confidence that it did not best you, you swing yourself over arm to arm, latch on to a vine, and close the remaining distance to the shore, leaving the guard behind in ignorant bliss to your progress. You reach the other side and easily scale the bank to safe ground hiding among the bushes. You earn an Advancement Point for that great success.
PLAYER: I pat my pocket of pipeweed, exhale a sigh of relief and smile, “We will reacquaint soon, my friend. But first, I must finish what I came to do. I cannot wait to tell this story to Bilbo!” Thinking back on my earlier near catastrophic failure, I realize now what I did so wrong – I purposefully gripped the slippery beam without first trying to remove the moss. As a GARDENER (pointing to traits), I know a thing or two about such things, and will never make that mistake again!
LM: Well said, you’re invoking of a trait on that failure earns you an Advancement Point.
So you see, the biggest difference is describing, narrating the successes/failures AFTER getting the dice determined, and adjusting for “strategies” used via the roleplaying that is done – describing expenditures of hope, of battle success dice, of traits. Entire “combats” or encounter adjudication and success can be done via a few skill rolls (or use of traits) instead of “playing them out”. D&D would play them out in an hour long combat of miniature use and combat and tactics of steps, attacks, counter attacks, attacks of opportunity, flanks, trips, flat-footed etc and in the end, the result is – the heroes move on. In TOR, use some creative use of skills, narrate them, describe them, think outside the box, use them cleverly along with the traits, and overcome a would be encounter – not with battle, but with finesse, stealth, misdirection, etc. Use up 5-10 minutes discussing that, and move on, vs the 1 hour the combat would take in D&D and move on to the next important part of the story or journey. Furthermore, without a plethora of Cure Light Wounds spells, potions, wands, scrolls, channeling energy, and lay on hands, wounds are easily quite cumbersome in TOR and healing and weariness quite the ordeal and not easily overcome. Many would-be combats should be dealt with guile, not swords. THERE in lies the strategy of the game. THERE in lies the brilliance of the rules. THERE in lies the fun and collaborative teamplay of the game and THERE in lies the roleplaying – playing the part, and playing it well.
Hope this helps. Would be happy to discuss further if you need to.
Robert
Last edited by
SirKicley on Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
