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Well I like to think of them as short hand. The Loremaster is the final judge, but if you can cultivate a collective storytelling vibe (not always easy to do) the players will know when trait use is appropriate or not.

Trying to stealth kill an important baddy is not really on is it. We all know this don't we? This isn't about rules of the game but rules of a story. (something I know a fair bit about). Imagine reading a book where the protagonist sneaks in kills the big bad and sneaks off again. It might work in a book about the SAS but it isn't what stories are about.

As to trait use: think of it like this:

Two characters: both light of foot and can move silently, (both have stealth of 3)

Garn the first has been a thief all his life, he is not only naturally good at not being spotted/heard he has done alot of it. (He is elusive)

Feron, is a hunter, well practisted in stalking. He has honed his skills.

Both have a fair chance of passing by unnoticed in a variety of situations. But Feron has to work that little harder than Garn, it comes as second nature to the thief.

In game terms Feron has to roll, Garn doesn't.

Even when it seems likely that someone would notice Garn, he has the innate talent to get by. (TN 16) He can still get through tricky situations that others would struggle with. He can use Elusive still.

Garn cannot sneak past the plot though. This is important to remember. He cannot rely on his innate trait to do things that would short curcuit the narrative (his talent may still get him through though). He still has to roll at the dramatic 'crunch' moment. The TN could be anything it doesn't matter.

Stealth in general has always been a funny one for my gaming group. We have the phrase - 'A stealth roll too far', you know the scenario, the player or group are sneaking - the gm has to use his common sense to try judge how many rolls they have to make, at some point the players will fail (perhaps not at the 'crunch' point. The use of elusive trait helps the Gm/Lm it doesn't hinder him. The same is true of all rolls. It is an aid to the story not a short curcuit.

I think I might be rambling a bit. Just trying to explain that we are telling tales of adventure and excitment not trying to one up each other.

It's a nice explanation poosticks, you're not rambling at all.

I think it backs up that I've been applying the rules correctly - ie, vetoing most Trait invocations for auto-successes when it isn't dramatically appropriate or too difficult. Nothing I've read in this thread has caused me to change my mind on this but I still think there is a lack of clarity in the rulebook as evidenced from these discussions.

Rich H wrote:The rules also state that advantages conferred by Traits aren't powerful enough to unbalance the game yet, as we do keep having this discussion, it is evident that certain interpretations of the rules are leading to this imbalance and also an inequality in comparative trait usage - ie, some traits have broader application than others so are inherently *better*.

You're fixated on the idea of "unbalancing the game." How is one character who is Hardy always using his trait to avoid fatigue tests unbalancing? So he is not as fatigued as his companions after a long journey; how is that anything but what we'd expect from someone who is Hardy? How is one character with Elusive who always manages to sneak in a basic manner—but not automatically kill from behind—unbalancing?

As for breadth of application: when a trait like Smoking can be used to sneak, we must realize that the only limitation to any trait is how imaginatively you use it. I disagree that some are more useful than others; I think some are just more obvious than others.

I have yet to see a single example of a trait used as described that breaks the game or compels everyone to take it. I have seen people take a trait's description too broadly, like thinking Determined will let you repeat failed actions ad infinitum.

Traits are tools for players to use to characterize their heroes. As written, they don't break anything.

poosticks7 wrote:Garn cannot sneak past the plot though.

What does this mean? "I don't care how Elusive you are; I planned a Stealth roll here, so you're gonna roll Stealth"?

When I run a game, if a player decides to be Elusive to sneak past a "plot point," we congratulate him on his clever thinking, and I make sure future "plot points" aren't so vulnerable.

I can see the point made here about how Elusive allows you to be stealthy, but not an Assassin.

Elusive will give an auto-succes on your stealth roll. So your character manage to sneak through the camp and make it to Big Baddy...Heck you might even manage to get directly behind him in a good position to strike him from advantage (eg a bonus to strike for catching him unaware), but at the end (unless he is asleep) you still need to attack your opponent, and if you fail to kill him, he will raise the alarm, try to kill/capture you and generally make you work for your money.

Easy in, but not necessarely an easy out.

I am not sure it is at all a given that we are all on the same page about what the object of the game is. In my own experience I have met players who feel that "winning" is a) telling a good story, b) defeating lots of foes in combat, c) acquiring lots of loot and treasure, d) achieving an in character goal, e) making clever use of game mechanics, f) foiling the GM's plans, g) having a good time with friends, h) being as disruptive as possible.

Some of these victory conditions are mutually exclusive, none of them are necessarily wrong, except maybe the last one.

I don't like the though of either a Trait that works except when the LM doesn't want it to, or that always works even if the LM doesn't think it should. There needs to be some flexibility in what can and cannot be accomplished with a Trait.

I agree that Smoking can be used to quietly excuse yourself from a social situation and slip away unnoticed, the same as Elusive would allow you to do. I don't think either Trait would allow you to just slip out of a prison cell. An Elusive character might still be able to invoke the Trait to escape from prison by narrating some scheme, "I switch clothes with the washerwoman and walk out carrying the laundry" for instance. I have a harder time seeing how Smoking could get you out of prison but if the player had a good story...

As for one hit killing the boss bad guy in an adventure, depending on the situation and circumstances I could see Elusive allowing a character to sneak close enough to strike a first blow undetected. If that blow kills the bad guy, so be it. If not, very likely the alarm will be raised.

If an elusive character wanted to assassinate the Great Goblin and stated they were invoking their Elusive Trait to sneak around Goblintown undetected until they could catch the Great Goblin on his own I would allow it. If they said they were going to sneak up behind him on his throne in the middle of court and slit his throat I would not allow an automatic success, but I might allow the player to make a roll for it. A non-Elusive character would be told "Forget it. There is no way you are going to sneak through the goblin court and assassinate the King on his throne. Do you want to try to sneak through Goblintown? Make a roll to get in past the guards at the gate..."

I think as long as everybody is having fun things are good. This includes the Game Master.

The statement that Traits are not meant to break the game seems to indicate that if they are we need to scale back a bit on what we let them do.

A simple solution to a player using Elusive to automatically succeed on Stealth checks would be to use opposed rolls, especially when it involves a major NPC. They can still use the Elusive to get the success if they want to, but they're not going to get any tengwar runes, nor are they going to get to roll the feat die. As long as the NPC succeeds, they'll spot the Elusive PC because they'll have either rolled at least one six, or their feat die result is higher by default since the player didn't roll.

Stormcrow wrote:

poosticks7 wrote:Garn cannot sneak past the plot though.

What does this mean? "I don't care how Elusive you are; I planned a Stealth roll here, so you're gonna roll Stealth"?

When I run a game, if a player decides to be Elusive to sneak past a "plot point," we congratulate him on his clever thinking, and I make sure future "plot points" aren't so vulnerable.

No I didn't mean that at all.

I knew I was rambling a bit.

I meant if Garn uses elusive to make the game a total anticlimax then he is 'spoiling' (and I use that very losely) the fun.

I suppose it boils down to: Trait use - does it enhance the fun (everyone's) or does it detract. And it will be different for each group, it may even differ each session. If Garn does the same trick all the time - it is going to be less and less fun for everyone.

As Lore Masters we have to keep our fingers on the game 'pulse' if you will. But players have a responsibilty too.

Stormcrow wrote:You're fixated on the idea of "unbalancing the game."

I'm not going to disagree with you at all on that, I am. It's the most important bit about Traits and the rulebook even makes a point of saying that they shouldn't be... Your post here doesn't help me in this regard at all...

Stormcrow wrote:How is one character who is Hardy always using his trait to avoid fatigue tests unbalancing? So he is not as fatigued as his companions after a long journey; how is that anything but what we'd expect from someone who is Hardy?

... As that's unbalancing right there. A trait that can be invoked to auto succeed at every Travel roll to avoid Fatigue is unbalancing the game. That's effectively bypassing a whole subsection and important element of the rules and it's not something I think is fun.

Stormcrow wrote:As for breadth of application: when a trait like Smoking can be used to sneak, we must realize that the only limitation to any trait is how imaginatively you use it. I disagree that some are more useful than others; I think some are just more obvious than others.

More obvious allows for quicker and easier applications within a game when you're thinking on your feet so such traits are more useful in that respect.

Stormcrow wrote:I have yet to see a single example of a trait used as described that breaks the game or compels everyone to take it.

Traits are tools for players to use to characterize their heroes. As written, they don't break anything.

... You may not, but your example above with regards to letting someone with the Hardy trait auto succeed at the Journey mechanics to avoid Fatigue is a perfect example of it.

Like you've said on other threads you have issues with other parts of the game that I don't have but our opinions are swapped around on this one - we don't seem to agree about much; me and you. Never mind, I appreciate your comments, because they've helped re-affirm my stance on Traits and how they are, and should be, used. So, thanks.

Agree with the comments about keeping things fun (of which the Loremaster has a right to have fun too) and not making things boring. The issue I have with bringing these to the table as to why a trait should, or shouldn't, be invoked is that I think they are both pretty subjective and could vary which is always going to be a challenge to communicate within a ruleset.

I appreciate the rules for TOR have already been written but I'd have preferred a clearer set of rules on trait usage and when they can be invoked/veto'd for an auto success. Something like I suggested earlier in the thread - ie, can be auto-invoked on TN <= 14, but require Hope point spend above that unless the Loremaster decides otherwise and allows the auto-success based on a particularly outstanding/cool description. I'd have preferred something like this, rather than having the currently ambiguous rule descriptions of auto success by default with exceptions that are being interpreted differently by different people. In my experience, ambiguity within any system of rules is never a good thing.

Some may think they are already clear but evidently they aren't for many as this discussion comes up all the time, I put together a trait usage guide, and we're spending a lot of time still discussing the subject.