forums.cubicle7.co.uk
archive

Admittedly, fire, being simply energy, is the weirdest of the bunch.
But it stands to reason that if you can speak to a river, one could speak to the rain, no?
And if you can speak to water in its myriad forms, then why not a raincloud, or mist, or the wind that accompanies it?

Just brainstorming here.

Following on the heels of your brainstorming, I believe the matter rests in how the Loremaster understands this "speaking"...why can elves "communicate with almost everything" may be the question, no...? Of all the approaches a Loremaster can take to this virtue and its rationale, I started with Treebeard's words in my own reasoning:

"Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did" (Book III, Chapter 4: Treebeard).

"Everything" speaks not because its created to speak, but because its spoken to first. (I'm of the mind personally that "tree-talk" was a consequence of awakening and being addressed. Tree-talk, or fire-speech for that matter exists because the old Elves "woke" trees, and stone, and star, and water, and gulls, fire and rain from their quiescence. (That's my take, not a Tolkien explanation from The LotR.) The "old Elves" make the virtue ancient indeed!

I would craft stories around this rationale to help explain where fire, or wind, or rain first awoke to their memory and learned their "-talk" from the Elves. Maybe the wind-talk of the High Pass can speak of giants and storms, because the "old Elves" woke wind's conscious memory and spoke to the wind somehow "gifting" it with language, a wind-talk...? The wind howling through the High Pass speaks of giants and storms because those are the comings and goings that over time left lasting impressions in its memory...?

So, no episodic-precedents for the wind, rain or fire that I know of...though, the books give a reason for the virtue through the words of Treebeard: A reason that is more expansive than the episodes in which Tolkien wrote of such "speakers".

Regards,
Scott

P.s. Kids just finished cooking oat-cakes (Extraordinary success on my wife's part at this hour!), time for the kettle to sing to me of evening tea and a warm hearth! Umm, gotta go...! (My delay at setting the board, an ordinary success in riddling the steam-whistle rightly!)

I would assume that elves can't get useful "speech" out of fire—not because it can't "speak" in the same way as rocks or trees, but because its life is so short it hasn't seen or learned anything. All it would say is, "Hungry, hungry, hungry," and you don't need to be an elf to hear that.

Either that, or "Shhhhh! Shhhh!" if it's a Secret Flame.

It implies several things to me.

It implies that the LM should give the character pertinent information about something specific going on in the immediate environment, the more time spent there the more information. This could lead to an adventure.
So instead of a "hoover" to suck guys into a scenario, seems The Speakers, given the nature of this virtue would lend it a note of immediacy or importance.

It implies revelation of specific information; how many orcs, what is the greatest foe, what is the best path, very specific things of this nature may be gleaned as well, But with the overwhelming plethora of stones, rivers and beasts, insects that occupy an area it would be like listening for a single statement spoken by many speakers in an auditorium. It may take several successes each leading to a specific piece of info.

It implies that the LM has knowledge of the comings and goings and gossip of not only the things imbued with the Secret Fire, by of every life form, It implies, after reading the topics here, the LM knowing the thoughts of the four elements themselves.

And what about this idea, what about the case of a great Elf, who dwelt in an area, wishing to remain in secret seclusion to all even his kin. Would he not use The Speakers, knowing others may have this gift and could use it to guard his privacy? We know rocks can lie still, The question is, can rocks lie?

After all what do rocks really know? I imagine they may have long memories of profound things. Not so much who walked by here a day go. Flora, fauna, would have a more recent memory like that.

What it implies to me is that the LM should give pertinent information about the scenario at hand using whatever creativity the LM possesses when the player makes a successful roll.
What would be the point of telling the player useless information unless it was meant to mislead or confuse the player, which in my opinion would go against the spirit of the success, if its especially a difficult attempt, then useful rewards are due.

So in a way, the LM with prepared notes such as I could reveal information in creative and interesting ways using this virtue.

Then the next thing is the creativity part.. while sort of remaining true to the spirit of Middle Earth. Thats the hard part I am dealing with.

Ideas-
A flock of frightened birds fly overhead screeching Orcs! Fire! Flame and Axe!! Orcs!!

Crossing a stream The Speakers reveals the stream is suffering a deep sorrow, but the sorrow has been carried a long way from upstream and the source of the sorrow is unclear and diluted.

The earth here remembers the taste of blood . The stones speak of an ancient battle

Even the camp fire does not wish to light on the eve of the coming storm

The trees are not happy that we are here, they are threatening to drop acorns on us

The grass is traumatized and wailing over the passage of cruel hob nailed boots

Small animals of all types, normally skittish are practically non-existent in this area and those that are seen by the keen eyed are frantic in their pace and say only that death dwells nearby. The vegetation speaks of the chill in the air since death has come and trees are somber and brooding. Stones are strangely silent

The stones speak of the passage of many heavy feet just one moon ago, just as happened during the second age, which might be a clue for an elf with lore

I play a lot of Ars Magica. There are quite a few spells there for talking with stones, trees, animals and the like. never had a problem with it following these premises

1. For LOTR I would make conversation be more one directional than anything. Legolas HEARS the lament of the stones, but does not TALK to them.

2. Animals and plants and stones perceive the nature quite differently. They will be to be interested to talk to you in the first place. how do you interest a stone into talking to you? Interesting a fire with fuel might be easy, but the wind? What does a stone care if an animal travelled past it? he is interested in seasons at most, if not decades as single units of time, unless the thing affected it (a cisel cutting it, for example).

3. Trees (and other items) can lie. If you go and ask a nearby fir tree if orcs have passed by, but if he enjoys their presence because he is a malevolent tree he might say no even if a goblin is hiding in its treetop at the time. Our main storyguide has had lots of fun with this since for a reason players tend to think that animals and plants do not lie. Weird but true. Now we are much warier of what a plant says than when we started playing!

4. Talking to inanimate items or slow growing things can take a long time. Remember that say "hello" takes like a week for the ents of fangorn, and they are ultrafast speakers when it comes to tree-like beings.


It is not that you can't do it, but doing it fast, reliably and achieving the information you want ASAP can be challenging. Elves do not age, so can be listening for years to maintain a conversation. A troupe might not be so fortunate in available time to waste.

Some awesome descriptions/suggestions guys, really great stuff and helpful as one of my players has an elf PC with this Virtue.

It occurs to me that a clever LM might find a way to justify allowing an Elf with The Speakers to send a brief message via a stream to a waiting companion(s) far downstream with The Speakers . This idea falls in line with the statement in "News From Afar" in Darkening of Mirkwood p.5, "as quick as water flows, or quicker",

Depending on the quality of the success the message could range from garbled or partial, to quite clear. A limitation might be that the waiting Elf may have to visit the stream regularly because of the uncertainty of if/when a message was being sent, and how long it would take to carry the message.

It would take longer than a bird, but would be more reliable provided a success was rolled. After all a bird can be killed but a strong stream would be difficult or impossible to stop.

The question would be how the transmitting Elf would impart the message to the Stream, that might require some imaginative role play to satisfy the condition(s).

One might call it a "News Stream" LOL
.
.

Having said all these limits above, the speakers is also a great way to give the party clues in a mood-enhancing way. It can be quite cool, really

Don't forget the song of lament for Boromir sung by Legolas & Aragorn re the wind, to me an obvious use of The Speakers

Robin S