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DavetheLost wrote:If it takes more than a night's rest to shake it off then I call it "harmed". Wounded, gaining points of Shadow, being poisoned, etc.

I would disagree regarding gaining Shadow points. It's not something that the character really is aware of, and the rest of the fellowship can see it even less. How do you notice that your friend has failed a corruption test? On the other hand, becoming miserable can have noticable effects, so I would count it as being harmed.

On the coffee kicking in I rescind Shadow points. I will have to think about becoming Miserable.

"Harmed" means whatever causes anyone for whom he is the fellowship focus to call out his name in anguish when it happens. We are, after all, talking about an effect on those people, not on the fellowship focus himself.

For the record, how I manage this is - anything that creates a "condition" label on the character falls into the category of not allowing a rekindled hope point at the end of the session.

So a mere loss of Endurance or Shadow does not meet criteria.

But those losses may eventually lead to "WEARY" and "MISERABLE" conditions (respectively), and once that occurs, then that does meet criteria.

WEARY
WOUNDED
MISERABLE
DISEASED
POISONED

etc.

It's easy to understand and to follow, with little needs of further explanations or justifications. Conditions are either on or off.

Robert

Well...

Melee characters might need a different definition of 'harmed'.

If the melee character vanquishes 3 or 4 foes, but ends up weary...so he's tired. But he's feeling pretty good. He won the battle. Why does that count as harmed, even to his best friend?

Angelalex242 wrote:Well...

Melee characters might need a different definition of 'harmed'.

If the melee character vanquishes 3 or 4 foes, but ends up weary...so he's tired. But he's feeling pretty good. He won the battle. Why does that count as harmed, even to his best friend?

My feelings are similar.
My fellowship favour heavy armour, so they are often weary... Yet when they won a battle against some fifty goblins they were weary yet jubilant! Optimism and hope were surely abundant after prevailing against similar odds.

To me "otherwise harmed" is Miserable, Poisoned, Diseased and... Lost a lot of Endurance IN DEFEAT: taking a beating and being defeated is humiliating and hope-crushing. Taking a beating but winning is wholly different.

Corvo wrote:Lost a lot of Endurance IN DEFEAT: taking a beating and being defeated is humiliating and hope-crushing. Taking a beating but winning is wholly different.

... The rules allow for you to award Hope rewards for great victories and the like either through direct bonuses to a character's own Hope or to the Fellowship Pool (either refreshing it completely and/or boosting it); there are examples in TfW as far as I'm aware. For victories such as this, I'd personally use this kind of mechanism.

At the end of the day the rules that we're discussing here are about defining what harmed means and it boils down to allowing a character to get back 1 point of Hope if their focus "isn't harmed", if someone decides in their game that means that, when Wearied, even the heavily armoured characters are harmed then it's hardly 'hope crushing'. No Hope has been lost in such instances, a character just sees that his close and dear friend is seriously knackered and will remain so until they get a night's sleep (or comparable rest) and assuming endurance is above their total fatigue. I wouldn't say that's grounds for them getting Hope back under normal conditions, as like SirKicley said above it's a significant Condition that impacts the character, however if it's after a great battle (many goblins, a terrible Troll, etc) then I'd use what I suggested above as *only* being Wearied after such a dangerous battle is a cause for renewing Hope.

This is kind of why I think these rules are loosely defined. The debate is proving the point.

That makes sense.

To use a football example...

I'm pretty sure the Seahawks were 'weary' after the game...but they won, so they all got lots of hope back.

The Denver Broncos were also 'weary' after the game, but because they got their rear ends kicked that hard, they went home with a point of Shadow, or maybe even 2.

Angelalex242 wrote:I'm pretty sure the Seahawks were 'weary' after the game...but they won, so they all got lots of hope back.

... It's why I've house ruled away Fellowship Hope refreshing at the end of a game session and now link such refreshes to critical/narratively important points within the game world - ie, hope refreshes based on in-game events and not simply due to a 2 or 4 of 8 hour game session coming to a close.

Rich H wrote:

Angelalex242 wrote:I'm pretty sure the Seahawks were 'weary' after the game...but they won, so they all got lots of hope back.

... It's why I've house ruled away Fellowship Hope refreshing at the end of a game session and now link such refreshes to critical/narratively important points within the game world - ie, hope refreshes based on in-game events and not simply due to a 2 or 4 of 8 hour game session coming to a close.

I haven't played enough of my campaign yet to comment, but I have to say one thing, removing the Fellowship pool refreshment seem a bit problematic at lower tiers. Since the characters have to spend a bit more Hope to go on, knowing that they have at least one point each to freely spend might be a lifesaver.