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Woodclaw wrote: I haven't played enough of my campaign yet to comment, but I have to say one thing, removing the Fellowship pool refreshment seem a bit problematic at lower tiers. Since the characters have to spend a bit more Hope to go on, knowing that they have at least one point each to freely spend might be a lifesaver.

You can still refresh some hope at the end of the adventure, if not at the end of a session. I believe it would make more sense, narratively speaking. Of course, with Rich's house rule, the LM would have to ensure that there are enough in-game events that warrant some Hope gain.

Sometimes the end-of-session replenishment seemed weird, so I think I will suggest that house rule to my group.

Yusei wrote:

Woodclaw wrote: I haven't played enough of my campaign yet to comment, but I have to say one thing, removing the Fellowship pool refreshment seem a bit problematic at lower tiers. Since the characters have to spend a bit more Hope to go on, knowing that they have at least one point each to freely spend might be a lifesaver.

You can still refresh some hope at the end of the adventure, if not at the end of a session. I believe it would make more sense, narratively speaking. Of course, with Rich's house rule, the LM would have to ensure that there are enough in-game events that warrant some Hope gain.

Sometimes the end-of-session replenishment seemed weird, so I think I will suggest that house rule to my group.

Yes, I'm not removing the Fellowship Pool refresh Woodclaw, I'm just having it occur at points in the adventure's narrative where it makes sense rather than the weirdly artificial "at the end of a game session". Consider how broken that is - everyone's games runs for a different duration, so groups that game for 2 hour sessions get a Fellowship Pool refresh every 2 hours, yet those that play for 6 or 8 hours get a third or a quarter of those refreshes and yet have more demands placed on Hope through being exposed to more skill checks, combat, etc... Better to have it occur based on in-game achievements, key points, significant events, etc.

Rich H wrote: At the end of the day the rules that we're discussing here are about defining what harmed means and it boils down to allowing a character to get back 1 point of Hope if their focus "isn't harmed", if someone decides in their game that means that, when Wearied, even the heavily armoured characters are harmed then it's hardly 'hope crushing'. No Hope has been lost in such instances, a character just sees that his close and dear friend is seriously knackered and will remain so until they get a night's sleep (or comparable rest) and assuming endurance is above their total fatigue. I wouldn't say that's grounds for them getting Hope back under normal conditions, as like SirKicley said above it's a significant Condition that impacts the character, however if it's after a great battle (many goblins, a terrible Troll, etc) then I'd use what I suggested above as *only* being Wearied after such a dangerous battle is a cause for renewing Hope.

This is kind of why I think these rules are loosely defined. The debate is proving the point.[/quote]

Couldn't have said it better, bud. That's precisely how I view it.

This is kind of why I think these rules are loosely defined. The debate is proving the point.

I agree on this as well, they are very loosely defined. Personally I find that a blessing, not a curse. In the end, if was forcibly defined, we wouldn't have had a reason to discuss so many different varying viewpoints on the matter to which cherrypick ones own style preference for what matches their own belief - and possibly tweak in way that had not yet occurred to someone.

Robert

Rich H wrote:

Yusei wrote:

Woodclaw wrote: I haven't played enough of my campaign yet to comment, but I have to say one thing, removing the Fellowship pool refreshment seem a bit problematic at lower tiers. Since the characters have to spend a bit more Hope to go on, knowing that they have at least one point each to freely spend might be a lifesaver.

You can still refresh some hope at the end of the adventure, if not at the end of a session. I believe it would make more sense, narratively speaking. Of course, with Rich's house rule, the LM would have to ensure that there are enough in-game events that warrant some Hope gain.

Sometimes the end-of-session replenishment seemed weird, so I think I will suggest that house rule to my group.

Yes, I'm not removing the Fellowship Pool refresh Woodclaw, I'm just having it occur at points in the adventure's narrative where it makes sense rather than the weirdly artificial "at the end of a game session". Consider how broken that is - everyone's games runs for a different duration, so groups that game for 2 hour sessions get a Fellowship Pool refresh every 2 hours, yet those that play for 6 or 8 hours get a third or a quarter of those refreshes and yet have more demands placed on Hope through being exposed to more skill checks, combat, etc... Better to have it occur based on in-game achievements, key points, significant events, etc.

Interesting! I have had similar concerns on this in the past.

1 - a concern that shortened game sessions seem to be highway robbery for the player, or the contrary a long session seems overly taxing on players. Usually it seemed to us, that there was always a plethora of points left in the pool at the end of a session, and HOPE didn't seem to be being exhausted too frequently in order to make the miserable, and bouts of madness to have any presence in the game

2 - Another concern was the wonky way in which it seem so arbitrary to gain Hope at the end of a game day.

To address concern #1 due to long game sessions was one avenue I tried was: (each quest takes approximately 3 game sessions historically for us - this last one was 4, and some have been 2, but 3 is the avg, one being spent half of it as a Fellowship Phase), provide a Hope Fellowship Pool = to 2 points per character (3 for hobbits) and this was the pool for the whole journey/adventure/quest.

However, our group is made up of family guys, with alot of responsibilities. If everyone could play it's 8 people (me plus 7 players) but we've only had 1 time that's happened, Usually 1-2 people are missing every time we sit down to play (different people each time), so what happens, is the make up of the group is different each time, and the size is different. So it became difficult to assess how many points the Fellowship Pool should have at the start of the adventure, cuz one week there will be 2 hobbits, the next only 1, and the next none..... So we went back to the RAW on that.

As for concern #2, I really like Rich's ideas here. Rich, I would like some clarification as to what you are doing.....if I am reading your comments correctly:

1 - The PCs have a fellowship pool at the beginning of a Game day (based on RAW).
2 - Throughout the course of THAT game day, they can earn a point of HOPE based on some significant occurence/event, etc.
3 - At the end of the session - all unspent Hope Points from the pool disappear.
4 - rinse and repeat at the next game.

So do you still award one based on Fellowship Focus not being harmed?

Robert

One of the few rules issues that my group has already identified is that the Fellowship pool mechanics seem way too game-y. Players may as well just refill their Hope from the pool towards the end of the session, even if it doesn't make any IC sense to do so. This is compounded by the relatively short sessions my group has. So, I may give Rich's method a try.

Rich H wrote:

Yusei wrote:

Woodclaw wrote: I haven't played enough of my campaign yet to comment, but I have to say one thing, removing the Fellowship pool refreshment seem a bit problematic at lower tiers. Since the characters have to spend a bit more Hope to go on, knowing that they have at least one point each to freely spend might be a lifesaver.

You can still refresh some hope at the end of the adventure, if not at the end of a session. I believe it would make more sense, narratively speaking. Of course, with Rich's house rule, the LM would have to ensure that there are enough in-game events that warrant some Hope gain.

Sometimes the end-of-session replenishment seemed weird, so I think I will suggest that house rule to my group.

Yes, I'm not removing the Fellowship Pool refresh Woodclaw, I'm just having it occur at points in the adventure's narrative where it makes sense rather than the weirdly artificial "at the end of a game session". Consider how broken that is - everyone's games runs for a different duration, so groups that game for 2 hour sessions get a Fellowship Pool refresh every 2 hours, yet those that play for 6 or 8 hours get a third or a quarter of those refreshes and yet have more demands placed on Hope through being exposed to more skill checks, combat, etc... Better to have it occur based on in-game achievements, key points, significant events, etc.

Since I have the habit of ending each session with either a story significant event or a cliffhanger thsi has never been too much of a issue for me. I can see that having such a variable refresh timeframe is an issue, but I would play the devil's advocate for a moment and say: what about those groups that rush through the story?
I know that such groups are pretty rare among TOR players, but I have one such a player among mine, who pretty much keep pushing and pushing to get to the "good stuff" (read combat). A group of these players will most likely try to burn through many story moments hence they might end up refreshing too often.

Shieldmaiden wrote:One of the few rules issues that my group has already identified is that the Fellowship pool mechanics seem way too game-y. Players may as well just refill their Hope from the pool towards the end of the session, even if it doesn't make any IC sense to do so.

It will seem less problematical when Hope approaches Shadow.

Hi Robert,

Sorry, on my phone posting rather than my PC so it's a real struggle editing quotes and comments from previous posts! Briefly though, my Fellowship Hope refreshes don't occur at the end of a game day but at key points in an adventure. There are a few pages in the Additional Rules supplement that briefly describe this and also Inspirational events that should explain how I handle things in my game.

Sorry about this feeling like a bit of a 'fob off', very difficult posting on my phone!

Woodclaw wrote:Since I have the habit of ending each session with either a story significant event or a cliffhanger thsi has never been too much of a issue for me. I can see that having such a variable refresh timeframe is an issue, but I would play the devil's advocate for a moment and say: what about those groups that rush through the story?
I know that such groups are pretty rare among TOR players, but I have one such a player among mine, who pretty much keep pushing and pushing to get to the "good stuff" (read combat). A group of these players will most likely try to burn through many story moments hence they might end up refreshing too often.

That's not really a problem, if the PCs speed through the story they will still be having to overcome the challenges between, and that lead to, the Hope Fellowship pool refreshing.

Rich H wrote:Hi Robert,

Sorry, on my phone posting rather than my PC so it's a real struggle editing quotes and comments from previous posts! Briefly though, my Fellowship Hope refreshes don't occur at the end of a game day but at key points in an adventure. There are a few pages in the Additional Rules supplement that briefly describe this and also Inspirational events that should explain how I handle things in my game.

Sorry about this feeling like a bit of a 'fob off', very difficult posting on my phone!

Thanks, mate.

BTW, what the heck is a 'fob off'? Is that some sort of british colloquialism?

(in context my guess will be a cop-out or being dismissive....which no it isn't, I'll take a look).

Robert