Questions about Holdings. I've got a lot.

[PaulButler]

I love the rules for Holdings but they raise many questions. Here's just a few, rattled off the top of my brain:

1. Do Holdings count as a Sanctuary? If so, can the whole Fellowship treat them as such? TFW certainly provides the option of having the Easterly Inn count as a Sanctuary, so why not an Inn owned by a player? Alternately, can the option to perform an "Open New Sanctuary" Undertaking be used to make a Holding a a Sanctuary?

2. Holdings and Standings in "foreign" cultures. Say you've got a Woodman, and at the end of TFW he is granted land outside of Dale which he forms into a Holding. That Woodman's "home" is of course Woodland Hall or where ever, but doesn't it stand to reason that if he owns land near Dale that eventually he would be able to acquire a Standing rating amongst the people of Dale? I know "home" is a character's home culture of course, but acquiring Holdings outside of one's home realm raise all sorts of wacky questions about living away from home.

3. New Specialties. The rules state quite clearly that it is "not possible to gain a new Specialty" and yet the rules for Holdings reward characters who have Specialties that are relevant to their Holdings. Indeed, the wording suggests that "an innkeeper should learn Cooking, a Hunter Beast-Lore and so on" and yet there is currently no way to gain a new Specialty within the confines of the rules.

Thoughts?

[DavetheLost]

My thoughts on these questions:
1) No, Holdings do not automatically count as Sanctuaries. However, I see no reason why a Company could not spend a Fellowship Phase performing the Open New Sanctuary Undertaking to make it one.

2) The rules seem to use Valour instead of Standing when dealing with cultures other than your home culture. Somewhat ironicly a starting adventurer is better thought of in other cultures (minimum starting Valour 1) than at home (starting Standing 0)

3) This puzzles me as well. There is no way a character can plan with certainty for what Holding they may later obtain.

[PaulButler]

1) No, Holdings do not automatically count as Sanctuaries. However, I see no reason why a Company could not spend a Fellowship Phase performing the Open New Sanctuary Undertaking to make it one.

Yeah, definitely the answer I had arrived at.

2) The rules seem to use Valour instead of Standing when dealing with cultures other than your home culture. Somewhat ironicly a starting adventurer is better thought of in other cultures (minimum starting Valour 1) than at home (starting Standing 0)

You know, it kinda wants me to re-examine Standings as a whole. I mean, what do we use them for anyway?
We know they add to the Tolerance of any relevant Encounter (which is to say, an Encounter with a person from one of the character's home cultures.)
And we know that they are taken into consideration when the Fellowship wants to involve themselves in Year-End goings-on with notable personages.

Other than that (and how they relate to maximum rating for Holdings) what is Standing used for? I think that's it, as written in the rules. Has anyone come up with other clever uses for the stat?

[Woodclaw]

2) The rules seem to use Valour instead of Standing when dealing with cultures other than your home culture. Somewhat ironicly a starting adventurer is better thought of in other cultures (minimum starting Valour 1) than at home (starting Standing 0)

In my games I always assumed that the LM should award initial Standing based on the character background. Usually I give at least standing 1 or 2 to my players based on that.

3) This puzzles me as well. There is no way a character can plan with certainty for what Holding they may later obtain.

True they can't be added, but it's possible to change the one you have udring the Fellowship phase, so if the group decide to convert one of their holdings into a inn, they might use the next fellowship phase to switch some of their specialities to the relevant ones.

[Yusei]

1) No, Holdings do not automatically count as Sanctuaries. However, I see no reason why a Company could not spend a Fellowship Phase performing the Open New Sanctuary Undertaking to make it one.

I'm not sure about that. The way I see sanctuaries, they are safe places where you can relax, but there's no reason for your holdings to be safe unless you keep them safe (which means you can't relax). I would allow characters to have holdings in Esgaroth, and declare Esgaroth as a sanctuary, for example, but I wouldn't allow them to have a farmstead in the wild and have it be one.

3) This puzzles me as well. There is no way a character can plan with certainty for what Holding they may later obtain.

I had the same question. I guess gaining such traits could be interesting fellowship phase undertakings, possibly requiring some XP/AP, but we need a rule here.

Regarding changing traits during the FP, I thought it only included personality traits, not skills. I would be strange to forget smoking and gain cooking

[Andrew]

Holdings and Standings in "foreign" cultures. Say you've got a Woodman, and at the end of TFW he is granted land outside of Dale which he forms into a Holding. That Woodman's "home" is of course Woodland Hall or where ever, but doesn't it stand to reason that if he owns land near Dale that eventually he would be able to acquire a Standing rating amongst the people of Dale? I know "home" is a character's home culture of course, but acquiring Holdings outside of one's home realm raise all sorts of wacky questions about living away from home.

Don't forget the Receive Title undertaking, which lets you count your Standing towards another culture. I guess it's not just enough to settle down in a place inconspicuously - to be truly counted amongst a culture's significant folk you need to set out to earn it.

[DavetheLost]

Thanks Andrew, I had overlooked that one. (Lake-town for those who are wondering)

Of course undertaking Open New Sanctuary on a Holding should require that the Holding be a suitable place for a Sanctuary. A remote lode of rich ore in the Grey Mountains might well bring wealth, but I don't think such a bleak and lonely place would make a good Sanctuary. Likewise, I would disallow Open New Sanctuary in Goblin-town. Tolkien would probably leap from his grave if a Fellowship somehow developed good relations with the goblins.

[Mytholder]

1. Do Holdings count as a Sanctuary? If so, can the whole Fellowship treat them as such? TFW certainly provides the option of having the Easterly Inn count as a Sanctuary, so why not an Inn owned by a player? Alternately, can the option to perform an "Open New Sanctuary" Undertaking be used to make a Holding a a Sanctuary?

A Holding could be a Sanctuary, but certainly isn't by default. For a place to count as a Sanctuary, I'd say it needs most of the following criteria to be true:
* Free of the Shadow
* Safe - either hidden or fortified
* Protected or blessed by someone of considerable power
* Inhabited year-round by people other than the player characters
* Preserving or reminding visitors of better days

A Sanctuary is more than a place to take shelter; it's a place of healing and succour.

2. Holdings and Standings in "foreign" cultures. Say you've got a Woodman, and at the end of TFW he is granted land outside of Dale which he forms into a Holding. That Woodman's "home" is of course Woodland Hall or where ever, but doesn't it stand to reason that if he owns land near Dale that eventually he would be able to acquire a Standing rating amongst the people of Dale? I know "home" is a character's home culture of course, but acquiring Holdings outside of one's home realm raise all sorts of wacky questions about living away from home.

If the character settles there, and acts in a Daleish manner, and marries someone from Dale, and starts attending Bard's court in Daleish garb (and, as Andrew suggests), then I'd certainly let them buy Standing in Dale. If they don't live there, the best option is to find some trusty and upstanding folk from Dale to run the place in their stead.

3. New Specialties. The rules state quite clearly that it is "not possible to gain a new Specialty" and yet the rules for Holdings reward characters who have Specialties that are relevant to their Holdings. Indeed, the wording suggests that "an innkeeper should learn Cooking, a Hunter Beast-Lore and so on" and yet there is currently no way to gain a new Specialty within the confines of the rules.

There, I admit I'm bending the rules slightly, and that should have been made clear. I certainly allow players to swap Specialities as well as Distinctive Features with Fellowship actions, and there's certainly nothing game-breaking about swapping Cooking for Smoking.

[DavetheLost]

Thanks Gareth.
My new house rule is that the "Gain a New Distinctive Feature" Fellowship Phase Undertaking will be "Gain a New Trait" and will apply equally to both distinctive features and specialties. It seems to make sense, not be unbalancing, and fits well with the Holding rules.

Likewise the "Recieve Title" Undertaking will be available in other Sanctuaries, cultures and places than just Esgaroth. Or at least a similar means of obtaining Standing in a foreign culture. Character's will have to work for it and do something that is of meaningful value to the new culture/place. Simply showing up with a pile of treasure and saying "I want to join your group" will not be enough. After all characters still have Valour to serve as Standing in most cases. This will be a way to acknowledge special events like Merry taking service with the Steward of Gondor.

[Francesco]

1. Do Holdings count as a Sanctuary?

I agree with Gar and Andrew here. There is more to a Sanctuary than just a roof. Gareth's suggestions can be used as guidelines, then open the Sanctuary with the Fellowship phase undertaking.

3. New Specialties. The rules state quite clearly that it is "not possible to gain a new Specialty" and yet the rules for Holdings reward characters who have Specialties that are relevant to their Holdings. Indeed, the wording suggests that "an innkeeper should learn Cooking, a Hunter Beast-Lore and so on" and yet there is currently no way to gain a new Specialty within the confines of the rules.

That is indeed an oversight. In the original rules I limited the possibility of swapping a Trait not to include Specialities because I feared some players would find the scrapping of 'Smoking' for 'Cooking' too much of a stretch. If that's not an issue for you, please ignore the limitation. We'll definitely look into the issue at some time.

Francesco