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Elmoth wrote:Quite a sensible approach to The Necromancer here: it could be a powerful porc able to wield sorcery. Nothing warranting the intervention of the White Council (so this is why they dod not intervene), but a dangerous foe none the less. Sorcerers in ME can have maiar origin (or ancestors) for sure. It sounds sensible to me

Excellent point. The example of the Necromancer gives us, I believe, creative license. The fact that the White Council thought it plausible that there's a "necromancer" in Dol Guldur (who is not Sauron) means that there are bad guys in Middle Earth not otherwise mentioned in official writings.

I wrote a non-official supplement for Middle-earth roleplaying about Necromancy, doing an extensive research on the topic. By the way, you can find it here if you want to take a look.

Necromancy is a special kind of Sorcery and both are powered by the Morgothian element (the power Morgoth used to corrupt Arda and bent it to his will). So, a mortal Necromancer is perfectly possible according to cannon but it would be weak when compared to a Maiar using Necromancy because the second has a vast amount of power on his own.

Anyway, if we are going to speak about Necromancy, maybe I should open other topic...

Rocmistro wrote:Now in those days, Melkor sent evil spirits and other Maia that had given over to him their service to lie with the beasts of Arda, and to yoke unto them, and in their wicked deprivations, those beasts gave birth to abominations; half man and half beast. But as with all things outside the thought of Illuvatar, these plans came to ruin, and the offspring that came about from such unions were terrible and willful, having the heads and feet of beasts, unable to be controlled by Melkor, and they pursued their own rages and desires into the dark corners of Arda, never to be seen from again.

This is brilliant! I often quote the original text from The Silmarillion (below), but your passage opens up more of Pandora's Box for Middle-earth, as it were

But in the north Melkor built this strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days. And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over Middle-earth.

Arthadan: When you originally posted your Necromancy supplement online, I downloaded & printed it off. You did a fantastic job on this, & I often refer to it.

Mim wrote:

Rocmistro wrote:Now in those days, Melkor sent evil spirits and other Maia that had given over to him their service to lie with the beasts of Arda, and to yoke unto them, and in their wicked deprivations, those beasts gave birth to abominations; half man and half beast. But as with all things outside the thought of Illuvatar, these plans came to ruin, and the offspring that came about from such unions were terrible and willful, having the heads and feet of beasts, unable to be controlled by Melkor, and they pursued their own rages and desires into the dark corners of Arda, never to be seen from again.

This is brilliant! I often quote the original text from The Silmarillion (below), but your passage opens up more of Pandora's Box for Middle-earth, as it were

But in the north Melkor built this strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days. And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over Middle-earth.

Thanks Mim! Am I doing myself too much justice or is it uncanny how similar the two passages are? And to think I had no Silmarillion open in front of me; I just spitballed that off the top of my head.

Rocmistro wrote: Now in those days, Melkor sent evil spirits and other Maia that had given over to him their service to lie with the beasts of Arda, and to yoke unto them, and in their wicked deprivations, those beasts gave birth to abominations; half man and half beast. But as with all things outside the thought of Illuvatar, these plans came to ruin, and the offspring that came about from such unions were terrible and willful, having the heads and feet of beasts, unable to be controlled by Melkor, and they pursued their own rages and desires into the dark corners of Arda, never to be seen from again.
Could

This calls for some "mix your own abomination" rules/guidelines....

Mim, glad you lked the Necromancy Supplement!

About those creatures, I think we have no news of in late Third Age (it is safe to assume most of them perished in the War of Wrath or were haunted right after by the host of Aman). So tgey can be used to create a very special kind of creature for a single adventure, but not to populate Middle-earth with all sorts of monsters.

Plus I think this is the only quote (is it a Silmarillion quote?) for these creatures "having the heads and feet of beasts, unable to be controlled by Melkor". I'd take it with caution.

Arthadan wrote:About those creatures, I think we have no news of in late Third Age (it is safe to assume most of them perished in the War of Wrath or were haunted right after by the host of Aman). So tgey can be used to create a very special kind of creature for a single adventure, but not to populate Middle-earth with all sorts of monsters.

Yeah, unique monsters are eminently justifiable. "Spawned by Morgoth in the pits of Angband" is the Middle-Earth equivalent of "a wizard did it". Coming up with new races of monsters that feel Tolkienesque is the hard bit!

Arthadan wrote:Mim, glad you lked the Necromancy Supplement!

About those creatures, I think we have no news of in late Third Age (it is safe to assume most of them perished in the War of Wrath or were haunted right after by the host of Aman). So tgey can be used to create a very special kind of creature for a single adventure, but not to populate Middle-earth with all sorts of monsters.

Plus I think this is the only quote (is it a Silmarillion quote?) for these creatures "having the heads and feet of beasts, unable to be controlled by Melkor". I'd take it with caution.

No, no, Arthadan. That was just me being apocryphal and adding my own narrative to the Tolkien mythology. My point was that I could easily imagine some prose like that having been written by Tolkien to justify new/different diverse monsters...though I didn't have to, and honestly it wasn't all that off based on what Mim then quoted from the Silmarillion. (Specifically this part: "And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of diverse shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread ever southward over MIddle-earth."

I think that's all the justification anyone needs right there for adding in new monsters:

-He bred many different kinds of monsters.
-they were successful and can be presumed to still exist, since they LONG TROUBLED the world.
-they spread ever southward over Middle-earth; ie, they are everywhere.

Elmoth wrote:Quite a sensible approach to The Necromancer here: it could be a powerful porc able to wield sorcery. Nothing warranting the intervention of the White Council (so this is why they dod not intervene), but a dangerous foe none the less. Sorcerers in ME can have maiar origin (or ancestors) for sure. It sounds sensible to me

Porc? A breeding experiment by Sauron resulting in a D&D-style Orc (Orc + pig = Porc)?