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A "vambrace" is a forearm guard worn as part of a suit of plate armor. The classic mail-armored knight of the 10th-12th century would not be described as wearing that sort of armor; the term originates in the early 14th century.

Surely a vambrace can be worn without the rest of a full suit of plate armour?

Equally, I believe this conversation came up before on the old forums, and I *think* most people felt that even the Knights of Dol Amroth did not wear full plate. As always YMMV

Beleg wrote:Surely a vambrace can be worn without the rest of a full suit of plate armour?

Equally, I believe this conversation came up before on the old forums, and I *think* most people felt that even the Knights of Dol Amroth did not wear full plate. As always YMMV

I would agree that 15th century full plate is basically out of the question - I believe there's another line in The Lord of the Rings that refers to Imrahil's "shining mail".

Mail armor, plus some plate defenses on the arms and legs seems like a possibility though, maybe something like these depictions of early 14th-century knights:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/ ... night1.png

http://www.aemma.org/images/archetype1.jpg

That's the period when the term "vambrace" was invented, after all.

This game looks awesome & I'm looking forward to it, but I agree with Arthadan - I'm having a difficult time getting past these plate illustrations. I do not recall a single such reference in The Hobbit chapters concerning the battle. These pix are otherwise very well done & I understand Francesco's view about artistic license, but I respectfully disagree with their interpretation (probably the first time I've disagreed with any of their pix) .

Concerning the Gondorian debate, I respectfully disagree as well. Yes, the text describes the "full harness" of the swan-knights, but let's not forget how often the professor wrote metaphorically. Despite his brilliant work, he did not study warfare per se, so we'll probably never have a definitive answer. That said, however, while Tolkien rarely wrote about armour, there is an exception:

The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense. The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 280-81.

He wrote this to a fan in simplistic format (& about the Riders & not the Dúnedain), but it emphasizes his interest in the earlier period.

Einhander's citation of the reference to Imrahil being in "full harness" is pretty persuasive imho. Alhough I tend to agree with those who cite the plethora of explicit references to mail or chain armour that if in fact Tolkein intended such a reference to be to a form of plate armour {which seems plainly open), then the vast majority of references to chain armour would suggest to me at least that plate as such would have been relatively rare.

Nevertheless I would urge those who disagree with a depiction of a breastplate (and possibly half-plate armour) on the box art from The Battle of Five Armies not to become too worried. Thus far everything I have seen from Cubicle7 involving the Middle Earth has been greatly true to Tolkein. But it is well to note that all of this is of course based on a fantasy work and Tolkein never pretended to be comprehensively encyclopaedic about the artefacts available during the three ages he wrote about. Much was left open to the reader's interpretation and impression. That is the essence of great fantasy writing - sufficient detail is given to evoke a strong image in a reader's mind eye, but with sufficient blank canvass for the reader to fill in for themselves...

And so much as I personally sympathise with the pro-mail lobby, I would be very hesitant to support any contention that Tolkein's writing completely excluded the use of plate armour at all or to baldly assert that someone is "wrong" if they have a different perspective. I look forward to judging this product on its merit once it is released.

cheers
Mark

I suppose a (fairly?) interesting question could be to assume that if the Knights of Dol Amroth do wear full plate/harness then what makes them so special in this regard? Plate armour isn't mentioned anywhere else in the books, as far as I can recall (at least in The Hobbit and LotR) so is plate armour a new invention or some old lore/art that has been uncovered by the folk of Dol Amroth? Is it simply that such equipment is ludicrously expensive? Not sure that would work considering how wealthy Dwarves have a habit of being!

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Boardgame looks good though. I'll definitely pick it up as I have War of the Ring and have enjoyed it immensely on the occasions that I've played it.

Rich: You raise great points about the cost & about Dwarves. This can become a real mess , & I suppose the best explanation is (as always) for each of us to just do what works for our games.

Einhander, I forgot to mention that I appreciated that beautiful Osprey painting you shared. I've always enjoyed their books. You have insightful points about the full harness & the vambrance, & I've often wondered about Tolkien's use of those references in light of his others. I guess we'll never know what he intended . Sigh...

Einhander wrote:We never get a detailed description of the armor of the knights of Dol Amroth, but there are a couple of textual clues in The Lord of the Rings that suggest they wear some level of plate protection.

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"Full harness" is a term typically reserved for plate armor, not mail (try doing a Google image search for "full harness armor" to see what I mean).

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A "vambrace" is a forearm guard worn as part of a suit of plate armor. The classic mail-armored knight of the 10th-12th century would not be described as wearing that sort of armor; the term originates in the early 14th century.

I agree with your history, but apparently Tolkien didn't: he specifically mentions "the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail" in Chapter 4 ("The Siege of Gondor") of The Return of the King.

My own guess is that Tolkien envisioned the knights of Dol Amroth wearing transitional mail-with-plates armour similar to that which appeared in the 13th century. So they might have half-sleeved mail hauberks and vambraces, representing a slight advance in technology relative to the mail-clad Rohirrim.