Zed's Magic Thread

[zedturtle]

I think that's a great idea... The default would be choosing Eye Awareness but it creates another option for those times when a fellowship is under pressure to be more subtle and therefore will need to use Hope.

I think that the mechanical exchange is solid enough, the big trick will be to balance the effects.

Yeah, but I'm using the guidelines on page 113 of Rivendell, so hopefully things shake out right (or close to right). It should be noted that each of the categories that require point expenditures correspond to the NPC eye adjustments, just with an option (in most cases) for Hope use instead of simply requiring the Eye Awareness to be raised.

[Robin Smallburrow]

Zed,

I'll have a look at this in a few days when I have time, I am just finishing my Magic version (updated for Rivendell) so can't comment on yours as yet!

Robin S

[Robin Smallburrow]

Zed

I like your idea of giving the players a choice with regards to Hope or Eye Awareness - with your permission I will add this to my Magic Rules when I can be bothered to do Version 5!

I have updated it to Version 4 and I also used the guidelines in Rivendell in assigning Eye Awareness points, which I did for every spell.

Could give u more comments when your whole system is finished - perhaps too lenient with the EA?

IMHO I would increase the EA gain & hope loss accordingly, thus 1 hope or 1 EA, 2 hope/2EA, 3 hope/3EA. As a LM I particularly would be tough on possible abuse of blatant magic ( such as Lightning etc.)

Robin S.

[zedturtle]

Zed

I like your idea of giving the players a choice with regards to Hope or Eye Awareness - with your permission I will add this to my Magic Rules when I can be bothered to do Version 5!

I have updated it to Version 4 and I also used the guidelines in Rivendell in assigning Eye Awareness points, which I did for every spell.

Could give u more comments when your whole system is finished - perhaps too lenient with the EA?

IMHO I would increase the EA gain & hope loss accordingly, thus 1 hope or 1 EA, 2 hope/2EA, 3 hope/3EA. As a LM I particularly would be tough on possible abuse of blatant magic ( such as Lightning etc.)

Robin S.

Go for it.

My keeping it at 1 Hope was for two reasons... one, every ability in the official game so far costs 1 Hope to activate; and the source material seems to indicate that active workings of major or powerful magics can't but help attract the attention of the Enemy (or interested third parties, perhaps). Thus, the reason to keep the Hope option at 1, and increase the required amount of Eye Awareness with each level.

It's also allowed me to have the spells more or less self-balance, since any powerful spell comes with a high price that means even a dedicated caster wouldn't make constant use out of it.

You're free, of course, to do whatever you wish with your own stuff.

I've read a little of your latest document, it will take some time for me to digest it all.

[Mithrandir]

Zed this looks great and im already using some of it, can you help me flesh the rules out for this Lore of Necromancy and will your Magic book include dark sorcery like this?

Necromancy
All Necromancy must be performed once the sun has set. When performed exactly at the Witching Hour the TN is reduce -2.

Warding Ritual
Warding rituals create a circle using incantation, candles and powder to keep evil spirits from harming the summoner, any ghost, spirit or wraith (hereafter called a spirit). Spirits with AL less than the casters Wisdom Rating may not approach within 10' of the warded circle. Should a spirit with an AL greater than the caster Wisdom enter within 10' of the Ward the warder can make a Wisdom test with a TN of 10 + AL to force them out until the next evening. If the Ward is broken by any spirit then any spirit regardless of AL may then may harm those in the warded circle.

The Sight
The Necromancer used his magic to see spirits and then may try contacting and speaking with the dead from beyond the grave.
Allows the use of a spirits Lore, the Spirit must answer but need not answer truthfully but usually will in order to not be disturbed again. Attempts to make contact are 10+ the AL of the spirit contacted. If the TN is failed the spirit contacted is angered and departs, if a Sauron is rolled, the spirit may attempt to manifest to harm the living.

The Summoning
Raising the Dead from thier burial grounds is possible if the graves of the departed is already tainted and restless (to be determined by the LM). The Necromancer may command spirits by raising them from thier graves. Disturbing the dead is this way earns a Shadow point. The TN is equal to the level of corruption of the region or location of the burial grounds. The type of spirit summoned, should have a AL close to the Wisdom Ranking of the caster. On a Great sucess increase AL +1 on a Extraordinary success increase AL +2. The Summoned spirits control only last for an hour. The Spirits will not leave thier Burial grounds nd will attempt to expell any trespassers on thier burial grounds, if a ward isnt in place the disturbed spirit will attack the caster first.

The Binding
Attempts to bind a spirit once summoned to you will incur a shadow point and a Corruption Test or a further Shadow is gained. On a success the binding allows you control for only a short window, enough to give the spirit a quick task to complete and then you must release it before light and can not Bind that spirit again. On a Great Success, you can control the spirit until the next new moon before leaving it to its rest and you can not Bind it again. On a Exceptional success you have created a restless spirit, it is bound to you till the new moon and by using ritual within one year of the binding you can summon it to come to you and attempt to Bind it to you again. If the Binding fails or you do not summon it then the spirit becomes a restless spirit trapped in middle earth, it will haunt a location of its choosing.

[zedturtle]

Zed this looks great and I'm already using some of it, can you help me flesh the rules out for this Lore of Necromancy and will your Magic book include dark sorcery like this?

Thanks for the compliment! I'll make what comments I can, but this sort of spell would definitely fall under the category of Sorcery (i.e. 'evil magic'), and I'm hesitating on including that in my next version of the magic rules.

The first and foremost objection is philosophical. We've had some glorious debates on the forum about the nature of death and unlife in Middle Earth. But it's generally held that the souls of Men go beyond the circles of Arda (after spending some amount of time in the Halls of Mandos) and are thus in general not available for summoning.

But what about the Necromancer, you say?

I think Sauron might have learned his lesson from his reward to Gorlim, and practising long at preventing the spirits of Men from being freed from Arda and bound them instead to his service (minor shades, of much less stature than the Ringwraiths). So there are undead out there, but they're not easily found or controlled by mortals.

Necromancy
All Necromancy must be performed once the sun has set. When performed exactly at the Witching Hour the TN is reduce -2.

There's no particular way you'd know this, but I try really hard to avoid having any sort of tests associated with magic. The idea being that since you're often spending Hope (or at least raising Eye Awareness) these should not be 'maybe' things, they should be sure-fire instead.

Warding Ritual
Warding rituals create a circle using incantation, candles and powder to keep evil spirits from harming the summoner, any ghost, spirit or wraith (hereafter called a spirit). Spirits with AL less than the casters Wisdom Rating may not approach within 10' of the warded circle. Should a spirit with an AL greater than the caster Wisdom enter within 10' of the Ward the warder can make a Wisdom test with a TN of 10 + AL to force them out until the next evening. If the Ward is broken by any spirit then any spirit regardless of AL may then may harm those in the warded circle.

As above, I'd suggest that it simply be that the ward works on any spirits with an AL equal to or lower than the caster's Wisdom. Thus, powerful spirits can break the wards and casting the spell becomes a gamble of what you think is out there as opposed to what is really out there.

This is really mechanically/thematically close to my warding magic (which I haven't posted in the thread, other than in passing in my last preview), so I have no objection to it, per se.

The Sight
The Necromancer uses his magic to see spirits and then may try contacting and speaking with the dead from beyond the grave.
Allows the use of a spirits Lore, the Spirit must answer but need not answer truthfully but usually will in order to not be disturbed again. Attempts to make contact are 10+ the AL of the spirit contacted. If the TN is failed the spirit contacted is angered and departs, if a Sauron is rolled, the spirit may attempt to manifest to harm the living.

Bearing in mind my philosophical objections, this does sound like a fairly powerful spell, especially with the most-likely-to-be-true aspect. You don't specify what you are rolling in order to make contact...

I'd probably count this as a Major Magic in my cost system. I'd probably also ask for a Corruption Test (if you agree with my philosophy), since every spirit contacted is either a servant of the Shadow or the victim of some powerful curse/oath that made them not go to their appointed destiny.

The Summoning
Raising the Dead from their burial grounds is possible, if the graves of the departed is already tainted and restless (to be determined by the LM). The Necromancer may command spirits by raising them from their graves. Disturbing the dead in this way earns a Shadow point. The TN is equal to the level of corruption of the region or location of the burial grounds. The type of spirit summoned should have a AL close to the Wisdom Ranking of the caster. On a Great success increase AL +1 on a Extraordinary success increase AL +2. The Summoned spirits control only last for an hour. The Spirits will not leave their Burial grounds and will attempt to expel any trespassers on their burial grounds, if a ward isn't in place the disturbed spirit will attack the caster first.

Huh. Again, I'm not sure what you're rolling against. Any thoughts? Also, what role does this spell play in stories? It summons the dead, but doesn't seem to have any function itself, other than in preparation for the next spell. Players (assuming you are going with my model) will spend an Undertaking on this only to realise that they've got to spend another Undertaking to really get their evil on.

For me, I don't think this spell (or the next) is really appropriate for Middle Earth. I think there is space within Sorcery for a similar spell, but it'd have to be some sort of thing similar to the Morgul knife... i.e. a way of killing someone such that their spirit remains available for binding and corruption. Any such spell seems to qualify as a Powerful Magic and would come with a ton of Shadow Points.

The Binding
Attempts to bind a spirit once summoned to you will incur a shadow point and a Corruption Test or a further Shadow is gained. On a success the binding allows you control for only a short window, enough to give the spirit a quick task to complete and then you must release it before light and can not Bind that spirit again. On a Great Success, you can control the spirit until the next new moon before leaving it to its rest and you can not Bind it again. On a Exceptional success you have created a restless spirit, it is bound to you till the new moon and by using ritual within one year of the binding you can summon it to come to you and attempt to Bind it to you again. If the Binding fails or you do not summon it then the spirit becomes a restless spirit trapped in middle earth, it will haunt a location of its choosing.

At the risk of harping on it, what sort of test are looking at for this one?

Binding a spirit to your will seems very Powerful and very Evil, as you're personally denying them their release from the world. I don't think there'a any way a hero could cast this spell and remain a viable player hero.

[Mithrandir]

Necromancy
All Necromancy must be performed once the sun has set. When performed exactly at the Witching Hour the TN is reduce -2.

I try really hard to avoid having any sort of tests associated with magic. The idea being that since you're often spending Hope (or at least raising Eye Awareness# these should not be 'maybe' things, they should be sure-fire instead.

What would you suggest? Let me clarify this Lore is meant to be Sorcery or Evil Magic, but that doesnt mean it must always be used in a evil way. You have free reign to use whatever you or I come up with, I want this ability to be compatible with your work on Magic when ite released. Id like to see what you got so far.

And you should include Sorcery, its important for the Heroes to be tempted by it just as the fellowship was tempted by the One Ring. Wizards especially are the most at risk from corruption. Also for the sake of completeness you should include it, its the LMs responsibility to use such things as plot, and not let the PCs just pick such rewards, as they would surely have consequences but could make for interesting story. The LM can use that info as grounded mechanics for his LM bad guys and as temptation for the PCS.

As above, I'd suggest that it simply be that the ward works on any spirits with an AL equal to or lower than the caster's Wisdom. Thus, powerful spirits can break the wards and casting the spell becomes a gamble of what you think is out there as opposed to what is really out there.

This is really mechanically/thematically close to my warding magic #which I haven't posted in the thread, other than in passing in my last preview#, so I have no objection to it, per se.

Warding Ritual
Warding rituals create a circle using incantation, candles and powder to keep evil spirits from harming the summoner, any ghost, spirit or wraith #hereafter called a spirit#. Any spirits with an AL equal to or lower than the caster's Wisdom Rating may not approach within 10' of the warded circle. If the Ward is broken by any spirit then any spirit regardless of AL may then may harm those in the warded circle.

I changed it to work as you suggested

I'd probably count this as a Major Magic in my cost system. I'd probably also ask for a Corruption Test #if you agree with my philosophy#, since every spirit contacted is either a servant of the Shadow or the victim of some powerful curse/oath that made them not go to their appointed destiny.

Corruption added, I intend to allow the Eye Awareness option.

The Sight
The Necromancer uses his magic to see spirits and then may try contacting and speaking with the dead from beyond the grave to start an Encounter. Usually this is done because the spirit has some knowledge the caster seeks. Since every spirit contacted is either a servant of the Shadow or the victim of some powerful curse/oath that made them not go to their appointed destiny the caster must make a Corruption roll or gain a point of shadow. The Spirit must answer but need not answer truthfully but usually will in order to not be disturbed again. Attempts to make contact are 10+ the AL of the spirit contacted. If the TN is failed the spirit contacted is angered and departs, if a Sauron is rolled, the spirit may attempt to harm the caste.

Huh. Again, I'm not sure what you're rolling against. Any thoughts? Also, what role does this spell play in stories? It summons the dead, but doesn't seem to have any function itself, other than in preparation for the next spell. Players #assuming you are going with my model# will spend an Undertaking on this only to realise that they've got to spend another Undertaking to really get their evil on.

For me, I don't think this spell #or the next# is really appropriate for Middle Earth. I think there is space within Sorcery for a similar spell, but it'd have to be some sort of thing similar to the Morgul knife... i.e. a way of killing someone such that their spirit remains available for binding and corruption. Any such spell seems to qualify as a Powerful Magic and would come with a ton of Shadow Points.

The TN was for the Corruption test, no rolls. This would be used to get info I have specified it as an Encounter.

The Summoning
If the graves of the departed is already tainted and restless #to be determined by the LM#. The Necromancer may command spirits by raising them from their graves. Disturbing the dead earns a Corruption test. The TN is equal to the level of corruption of the region or location of the burial grounds. The type of spirit summoned should have a AL close to the Wisdom Ranking of the caster. On a Great success increase AL +1 on a Extraordinary success increase AL +2. The Summoned spirits control only last for an hour. The Spirits will not leave their Burial grounds and will attempt to expel any trespassers on their burial grounds, if a ward isn't in place the disturbed spirit will attack the caster first.

At the risk of harping on it, what sort of test are looking at for this one?

Binding a spirit to your will seems very Powerful and very Evil, as you're personally denying them their release from the world. I don't think there'a any way a hero could cast this spell and remain a viable player hero.

The test is the Corruption test, so its the result of the Tengars on the Wisdom roll. Most spirits would be minions of the Necromancer or the Witch King. If a Wizard were to command a spirit for a greater good say to show them the way out or to show them the way to the relic it wouldnt be as bad as say binding a spirit that wasnt evil, that was say trapped by a curse. So its been left to the LM discretion. The last ability is for completeness its unlikly a hero would make great use of it. Maybe it should be combined with the Summoning. No matter how good intentioned this is evil magic and corruption would result from the binding.

The Binding
Attempts to bind a spirit to your will wil result in a Corruption Test best assigned by the LM. If the Spirit is not a minion of the Shadow then binding it will result in a 5 point Misdeed same as Torment. On a success the binding allows you control for only a short window, enough to give the spirit a quick task to complete and then you must release it before light and can not Bind that spirit again. On a Great Success, you can control the spirit until the next new moon before leaving it to its rest and you can not Bind it again. On a Exceptional success you have created a restless spirit, it is bound to you till the new moon and by using ritual within one year of the binding you can summon it to come to you and attempt to Bind it to you again. If the Binding fails or you do not summon it then the spirit becomes a restless spirit trapped in middle earth, it will haunt a location of its choosing.

[Robin Smallburrow]

Mithrandir

If u want a complete, comprehensive system of magic (and I do agree with your comments about LMing BTW) u should have a look at mine (link in my sig) which includes Sorcery etc., although I haven't discussed designing a magic-wielding Adversary- perhaps I should!?

Robin S.

[zedturtle]

Mithrandir

If u want a complete, comprehensive system of magic (and I do agree with your comments about LMing BTW) u should have a look at mine (link in my sig) which includes Sorcery etc., although I haven't discussed designing a magic-wielding Adversary- perhaps I should!?

Robin S.

Huh. Can I get some feedback on this point (from anyone)?

I'm a bit leery, because I don't want to reproduce large swathes of C7 material (because that's not kosher) but I think a lot of the sorcerous potential has already been represented in the mechanics of the game.

Do people want sorcery from/in my system?

[Rich H]

Do people want sorcery from/in my system?

No, and nor should you give it them. Keep your initial idea pure - auteur it or risk losing the strong design and thematic feel you've created in it.