Hobbits and bows

[Glorelendil]

My choice was to add a few Combat Actions:

... Those look familiar!

As a bit of a tangent, I really hope we see the Adventurer's Companion expanding on elements/systems that already exist in the RAW. Some new Combat Tasks would be interesting to read and adopt to my game.

I hear the Adventurer's Companion is going to include...

Ok, I'll stop.

[Falenthal]

Falenthal, while I like the Tasks you've made for Hobbits, it seems strange to me to have a set of Tasks that only works for one Culture. The first thing Hinder does (on a success) is make it so the opponent can't do Called Shots. Do you have your own rules for Called Shots? (where the opponents can choose when to do them?

Oh, no, this Tasks are available to everyone. Only that I felt that hobbits needed something else than intimidating their foes or defending someone else.
As for Hinder, I don't have any special rule for Called Shots. But it's a Task that can come handy if someone rolls an Eye and fails, and a companion can attack before the adversary tries his Called shot.

My choice was to add a few Combat Actions:

... Those look familiar!

I've posted this Tasks more than once in this forums and this is the first time that I slipped the credits parts. Sorry for that!
I added those Combat Tasks, but did not make them. ALL credit goes to Rich H and Glorelendil.

the RAW already has this 'baked in' with their low Body scores. Our Hobbit (sometimes a melee fighter, sometimes an archer) has never dealt much damage to the adversaries, though he's still been effective in dropping enemies in other ways, by things like Wounding them.

The mechanic that adds Body to damage, and the fact that hobbits do have a low Body, is magnificient. But I still thought hobbits could do the same damage as a Woodman and the same Injuries as a Beorning (with the same weapons, of course). Nonetheless, I'd recommend everyone to first try the RAW Hobbits before baking them...

[Majestic]

Oh, no, this Tasks are available to everyone. Only that I felt that hobbits needed something else than intimidating their foes or defending someone else.
As for Hinder, I don't have any special rule for Called Shots. But it's a Task that can come handy if someone rolls an Eye and fails, and a companion can attack before the adversary tries his Called shot.

Oh, gotcha. I'm actually all in favor of a few Tasks being added, as that adds some variety to the game. I'm hopeful that C7 will at some point give us some new ones as well. These are pretty fun, and I like the example of Bilbo insulting the spiders. I also like the idea of having potential bad consequences (on failures with an Eye).

[Rich H]

... Those look familiar!

I've posted this Tasks more than once in this forums and this is the first time that I slipped the credits parts. Sorry for that!
I added those Combat Tasks, but did not make them. ALL credit goes to Rich H and Glorelendil.

No need to apologise. I actually wasn't trying to get credit, just saying they were familiar because I used them too!

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't know if adding more combat tasks available to everyone meaningfully makes up for anything for Hobbits. It just forces them to do those tasks while other characters get the choice of either fighting or doing so (based on which is more advantageous).

Besides, Hobbits are already the single lowest damage culture by quite a bit. With a max weapon damage of 7, damage stat of 4, and Injury of 16. And that's with weapon enhancements and a specific Background choice.

The Woodmen, by comparison, easily manage weapon damage 9, an effective damage stat of 9 in many ways via Woodland Bow (and an average of at least 6 even if you don't buy that it counts as a 9), and Injury 22. Those last two don't go together, but even on a bow they get Injury 18. Those are, again, with specific choices, but look at how much higher they are.

Every other Culture's damage numbers are at least on par with the Woodmens'. A Beorning, for example, maxes out at weapon damage 11, damage stat 7, and Injury 24, and even an Elf of Mirkwood at weapon damage 11, damage stat 6, and Injury 18.

Adding additional penalties seems deeply unnecessary, and rather unpleasant for Hobbit players who might actually like to achieve things in combat.

[Falenthal]

I don't know if adding more combat tasks available to everyone meaningfully makes up for anything for Hobbits. It just forces them to do those tasks while other characters get the choice of either fighting or doing so (based on which is more advantageous).

First of all, Hobbits as are in the game are totally ok.
I just wanted to make them still more "useless" as plain fighters (damage dealers/injury seekers), but at the same time allow them more support options during combat.

It all comes down to personal likings. I don't want my hobbits to tell me, when the group finds a Troll, "I attack him with my King's Blade sword". That's what the beorning and the dwarf do. I want the hobbit to have different options, like: "I try to throw stones at him, so that he's hindered when trying to hit my comrades".

All in all, he won't find himself as useless in a fight as other cultures find themselves during Encounters.

When I think of a hobbit in a fight, I always remember this:

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

'Eowyn! Eowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength, she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulder bowed before her.

As quick as lightning they came running and swinging towards the hobbit, flinging out their long threads in all directions, till the air seemed full of waving snares.

Bilbo, however, soon slipped away to a different place. The idea came to him to lead the furious spiders further and further away from the dwarves, if he could; to make them curious, excited and angry all at once. When about fifty had gone off to the place where he had stood before, he threw some more stones at these, and at others that had stopped behind; then dancing among the trees he began to sing a song to infuriate them and bring them all after him, and also to let the dwarves hear his voice.

Of course, there are other quotes that support the RAW hobbits as they are. Like:

Then the great spider, who had been busy tying him up while he dozed, came from behind him and came at him. He could only see the thing’s eyes, but he could feel its hairy legs as it struggled to wind its abominable threads round and round him. It was lucky that he had come to his senses in time. Soon he would not have been able to move at all. As it was, he had a desperate fight before he got free. He beat the creature off with his hands—it was trying to poison him to keep him quiet, as small spiders do to flies—until he remembered his sword and drew it out. Then the spider jumped back, and he had time to cut his legs loose. After that it was his turn to attack. The spider evidently was not used to things that carried such stings at their sides, or it would have hurried away quicker. Bilbo came at it before it could disappear and stuck it with his sword right in the eyes. Then it went mad and leaped and danced and flung out its legs in horrible jerks, until he killed it with another stroke; and then he fell down and remembered nothing more for a long while.

There was the usual dim grey light of the forest-day about him when he came to his senses. The spider lay dead beside him, and his sword-blade was stained black. Somehow the killing of the giant spider, all alone by himself in the dark without the help of the wizard or the dwarves or of anyone else, made a great difference to Mr. Baggins. He felt a different person, and much fiercer and bolder in spite of an empty stomach, as he wiped his sword on the grass and put it back into its sheath.

[Deadmanwalking]

First of all, Hobbits as are in the game are totally ok.
I just wanted to make them still more "useless" as plain fighters (damage dealers/injury seekers), but at the same time allow them more support options during combat.

I don't personally have any objection to this idea. I wouldn't do it, but I can see the appeal.

The issue I have is, by merely reducing Hobbit combat capabilities and making more skill-uses available...Hobbits are no better at those other skill uses than more combat oriented characters. Due to the separation of xp and ap, characters inevitably advance in both combat and non-combat skills at about the same rate...so if the Hobbit is the only one using a non-combat skill, that's because just attacking is better for everyone else, which means he's likely less effective than they are. And if, on the other hand, everyone is doing it, he doesn't exactly feel special.

In short, if you want to ditch a Hobbit's combat capabilities, you should add something that makes them legitimately better at non-combat skills, at least when used in combat. Whether a Virtue, Cultural Blessing, or what there should be something there that makes other people feel as outclassed at, say, distracting foes, as the Hobbit does at damaging them. You don't appear to have done that.

It all comes down to personal likings. I don't want my hobbits to tell me, when the group finds a Troll, "I attack him with my King's Blade sword". That's what the beorning and the dwarf do. I want the hobbit to have different options, like: "I try to throw stones at him, so that he's hindered when trying to hit my comrades".

As I understand it, you've made it so everybody has that option. Which makes it not so much special to hobbits as forced on them, while everyone else gets a choice to do it or not based on which option is best tactically.

All in all, he won't find himself as useless in a fight as other cultures find themselves during Encounters.

My current Beorning character with Riddle, Persuade, Awe, Song, and Insight at 3 each (plus Courtesy and Inspire 1) in a game where nobody has skills over 4 (and only one skill at 4 if they even have one) begs leave to disagree...he's easily on par with the Hobbit (who has Courtesy, Riddle, Song, and Persuade at 3, but only Insight 2 and no Awe or Inspire at all) in social skills. His skills are admittedly somewhat focused in that area, but that fact effects his combat prowess very minimally.

Which is the problem, really. Even Woodmen, Elves, or Dwarves can get a social skill or two to 3 or 4 fairly casually (even at character creation) and be an asset in most Encounters (and Lakemen, Bardings, and Beornings are actually all quite solid in social encounters by default). So...saying 'Hobbits are better in Encounters' isn't actually very true. Beornings, Men of the Lake, and Bardings are as good (or close to it, anyway), without the combat penalties you're levying.

When I think of a hobbit in a fight, I always remember this:

And that's fine. I just think you're not going far enough in compensating them for the disadvantages you're giving them. At least, based on your posts in this thread.

Of course, there are other quotes that support the RAW hobbits as they are. Like:

Well, yes.

[Glorelendil]

In principle I really like Falenthal's approach. Or his objective. Not sure how to achieve it. I agree that having good social skills doesn't count, because the Beorning can always put AP into those skills, but it's much harder to become effective in combat. Besides, having the Hobbit become effective in combat sort of defeats the purpose of this exercise.

Unfortunately, I am having trouble being creative at solutions. The only thing that springs to mind is to make The Art of Disappearing less expensive (once per encounter or combat?) and with specific mechanical advantages, but then we're in danger of introducing Rogues to the game..\

[Francesco]

I don't want my hobbits to tell me, when the group finds a Troll, "I attack him with my King's Blade sword".

Hobbits do not find much respect around here... Luckily for Middle-earth, Sauron and his servants underestimated them too!

Jokes aside, this quote from 'RotK' is interesting in relation with your statement:

"At Pippin’s side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down. Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath him."

And don't forget about who defeated Shelob...

Francesco

[Falenthal]

Francesco, you intentionally left the rest of the quote out. The next thing Pippin did after killing the Chief Hill-troll was feint.
And Shelob wasn't killed by Sam, she was only a little beaten... Nothing a few hundred years of rest couldn't heal.

First of all, thanks deadman, Glor and Francesco for taking your time (and Wits!) to think how to improve the house-rule I'm using.

I have to agree that, at this moment, my Hobbits have been disgraced without any real compensation.
I'm not trying to make them incapable of doing harm (as Bilbo's and Pippin's quotes show), only that they might need some Hope points and a Famous Weapon to do so (not every Hobbit is lucky enough to have found an Elven or Númenórean Dagger in a * Hoard).

I had thought of some ideas, but didn't stick to any one of them. They relate to what Glorelendil said.

1) Give them, at character creation, the extra Permanent Trait (cannot be changed with a Fellowship Undertaking) "Small". This Trait would be in addition to the normal Traits. Think of it as the counterpart of Great Size. It is not an improvement per se in Common Skills, but it can help every skill. Specially Stealth or Athletics in small sizes can benefit from it. I can also see it being used with Inspire, when telling a crowd how such a small guy braved into an goblin's den or things like that.

2) The Virtue Small Folk would have to be changed, as it normally grants the Small Trait. My option was to swap the Trait gain with the following : During a Combat engagement, if an enemy that's bigger than you can engage another companion, he won't choose a hobbit with Small Folk as his target. I would say that Goblins, Attercops and Wolves might be consider small for this purpouse. Makes me think of Boromir fighting wave after wave of Orcs and shouting: "Merry! Pippin! You both took the Small Folk Virtue during the Fellowship Phase in Lórien, didn't you? AHHHH... Damn halflings!!!!"

Another option would be to give the "During a Combat engagement..." ability as an additional Blessing to Hobbits and leave Small Folk as is.

3) As Glorelendil pointed out, maybe Art of Disappearing could also grant some benefit in Combat. Something like appearing whenever the hobbit wants, attacking whoever he wants (even enemy archers in Rearward stance) with a bonus die to the first attack and/or a bonus to Injury (King's Blade's ability to inflict a Wound almost automatically should prove useful here. Like Merry and the Witch-King surely know, or Pippin and the Chief Hill-troll). Sort of Great Leap, by spending a Hope point. Backstabbing Middle-earth style.

Just throwing ideas out of my head...