Adjusting Rangers and High Elves

[Glorelendil]

You might be onto something. Or may only draw from pool when Focus is unharmed.

[Corvo]

Going back to the proposal extolled on page 1 and 2 of the thread,
I think that Glorelendil's idea (1xp for each Fellowship point used) got an interesting side effect:
It was a tax on xp, so it combined nicely both the disadvantages designed by the game creators (slower advancement AND reduced hope expenditure).

With around 4 to 6 XP being handed out per adventuring phase I think it's too much. I personally prefer the 1 shadow point option. I also don't agree with the idea that these cultures should progress in XP more slowly so it's not something I really need to see supported in any house rule replacing them.

I share the sentiment but, apparently, that was the designer's intent.
By the way... by the rules, if I remember correctly, a group acting smartly can expect 3xp per session: 1 for presence, 1 for results, and half that when the adventure ends. Is it right? If the Ranger taps the fellowship pool once per session, it's a 33% tax (if the group keep being successfull).

As for Falenthal's idea... It is flavorful, but Glorelendil's observations looks correct to me.

For the moment, I think I'll stick to my proposal. At least, it's simple.

[Corvo]

What if Rangers could only draw Hope from the Fellowship Pool when the are eligible for a Fellowship Focus reward? So when their Focus is okay they can draw Hope normally, but when the focus gets hurt, they tap gets shut off?

And they might feel guilty about it and get hit with a shadow point? I mean they are supposed to protect others right? And obviously failed.

Another interesting idea.
It got the side effect of encouraging heroic behavior to keep the focus safe.
Another side effect is that Hope becomes an "all or nothing" resource for the Ranger, and this encourages hoarding: is that a problem?

[atgxtg]

Isn't Hope hoarding encourage to begin with. Unless I'm missing something, players can generally spent only a point or two a game session or else their Fellowship Pool will empty.

Hmm, it would be nice if there were a virtue or item that increased the rate that Hope was regained.

[zedturtle]

Isn't Hope hoarding encourage to begin with. Unless I'm missing something, players can generally spent only a point or two a game session or else their Fellowship Pool will empty.

Hmm, it would be nice if there were a virtue or item that increased the rate that Hope was regained.

The Fellowship Pool resets at the end of each session. So heroes can use a point or two from the Pool, and then might spend a point of personal Hope or two, relying on either regaining from the Pool next session (if they can manage not needing to spend it directly) or using things like Confidence or the Kingstone for Hope boost.

And there are a few other Undertakings that allow you to regain Hope. I do think it needs to be carefully balanced, otherwise the tension of Hope and Shadow can be lost.

[Falenthal]

Probably the first "disagreement" here is that we want to accomplish different things [makes me think of when Glor and me were discussing with Otaku about the Sling and Quarterstaff. It took us several pages to see that we were calling the same name to different things].

Rich (correct me if I'm using your name in vain ) and I don't want the variant rule to be a hindrance. At least, that's not the main goal. It's just a way to subtly remind the Ranger and High Elves players that their characters are not fully part of this world anymore, and aren't allowed to share their joy because of the burdens the ages and the fight against the Shadow have put on their shoulders.

That said, the rule shouldn't therefore be noticed constantly and, for the game-flow's sake, the less encumbersome (mechanics-wise), the better.

Regarding a few concerns...

I do like the flavor, but the point I was making is that the critical metric with Hope is the delta between it and Shadow. 12 Hope and 8 Shadow is functionally equivalent to 13 Hope and 9 Shadow, except that Shadow is far easier to shed than Hope is to gain.

Well, if the Ranger takes the Hope point during the Adventure to spend on some roll, then the delta is diminshed:
Starting with 12 Hope and 8 Shadow, he takes 1 Hope point from the Pool (and 1 Shadow) and automatically spends the pool Hope point. He ends the action with 12 Hope and 9 Shadow.
If he takes the Hope points from the Fellowship at the end of the session, to replenish his own Hope score, then the delta remains... as happens with any other character from other cultures.

Rangers would just spend more Fellowship Phases healing Shadow. Some extra investment into Song or Craft and a return to Rivendell for the double roll, and the the penalty isn't really one.

Aren't you playing this requirements too cheap?
We know that there are never enough Fellowship Phases to do everything a player wants to do. On top of everything else. IMHO, think this price is adequate to what I want to achieve with the house-rule.

[Falenthal]

Broadening and deepening (does this word exist?) the Fellowship focus rules for Rangers is a good idea. Even forcing them to have at least one would make sense. Why, otherwise, would a Ranger join a group (instead of a Ranger's SWAT Squad) for adventuring?
Nice idea.

[Rich H]

Rich (correct me if I'm using your name in vain ) and I don't want the variant rule to be a hindrance. At least, that's not the main goal. It's just a way to subtly remind the Ranger and High Elves players that their characters are not fully part of this world anymore, and aren't allowed to share their joy because of the burdens the ages and the fight against the Shadow have put on their shoulders.

Yes, that's about the size of it. A Ranger's access to the Fellowship Pool without any limitation would be fine for me but I think the hit of the Shadow point adds flavour and is something that a player could easily hook into RPing.

I actually don't mind the Rangers and High Elves being mechanically stronger than other cultures - mechanical game balance in TOR isn't something that particularly bothers me with respect to these two cutlures; I'm okay with them being visibly superior in that regard.

[Rich H]

By the way... by the rules, if I remember correctly, a group acting smartly can expect 3xp per session: 1 for presence, 1 for results, and half that when the adventure ends. Is it right? If the Ranger taps the fellowship pool once per session, it's a 33% tax (if the group keep being successfull).

One for another thread but this is a problem with game session based rewards and refreshes; people playing shorter game sessions will get more XP than people in longer sessions even if everything else was exactly the same. It's why when I was part of the review team for the revised edition I suggested the LM guidance notes get put into it text. I still don't use the RAW though, instead rewarding a set amount of XP for each adventure depending on it's content, with the potential of a bonus point under certain conditions.

[Glorelendil]

If the goal is mostly to add flavor and a relatively gentle penalty, then the Shadow point each time the Pool is used seems appropriate. I still don't love it. I think I prefer something along the lines of "You can't use the Pool if your Focus is hurt."

Another option, going back to the Fellowship Focus topic, would be that Rangers can have as many Fellowship Foci as they like, as long as none of them are Noldor or other Rangers. I.e., you can have a Ranger as a FF, but then you can only have one.

That way they can potentially spend a lot of Hope in the service of protecting all of their various Foci*, and if they keep them ALL safe they'll get one point of Hope back, but if any of them get hurt they get a Shadow point. And otherwise you leave the RAW intact: they cannot draw from Pool.

Thoughts?

*At one point we had a discussion about what "directly protect or favour" your FF means. I'd like to revisit that. E.g., does attacking a foe engaged with your FF count? I would think so. How about turning a failed Fatigue check into a Great Success, so that you can use the Tengwar to let your FF succeed? Again, I'd say yes.