Realism in Middle-earth

[atgxtg]

Mmmm....no, I'm not. I use "precise" to refer how he uses words, and "accuracy" to refer to historically/anthropologically accurate ("realistic") details (e.g. the design of halls in Rohan).

The two are not the same.

But they aren't historically accurate, since historically, there was no Rohan. Tolkien took aspects or other cultures. Even then he only took parts of cultures and added other bits. For instance Rohan is set up as a bring heaving on horses while the cultures it was based on were not particular known as horsemen.



So I don't see how you can consider it historically accurate in any sense., as there is no historical culture for him to be accurate to.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I really wasn't intending it as a gotcha. I don't see how brothels or even gambling dens are necessary, and I thought a back-and-forth playing through a scenario would be informative.

And maybe the difference is simply that some people like the seedy atmosphere provided by a brothel, whereas I find it jarring because it doesn't "fit" into the world I envision. Whereas in, say, Conan's world I would absolutely include the brothel, and probably make it a drug den (damned lotus-sniffers) as well.

Fair enough, though surely a gambling house is far more reasonable and less skeevy than either a brothel or opium den even in Tolkien's Middle-earth.

Any place where the consumption of alcohol is legal, there is also the chance of other, darker activities, whether legal or not. The patrons in The Prancing Pony at the time Frodo and company were there definitely gave it a seedy vibe to me. Bree itself in that rainy, cold nighttime scene gave me a seedy vibe for the whole town, though the visuals of Bree from the movie may have influenced my feelings on that. So where in Bree do those more shifty types go after getting their booze? Somewhere else inside the walls? Or outside the town to a nearby place where the real illegal activities happen?

[torus]

Ok, here's another example: tooth-aches, and dental issues in general. Certainly in a medieval city LOTS of people would have tooth decay, regardless of social status or Shadow points. One would realistically expect that in Minas Tirith to find both bad teeth and "dentists" of some sort.

But that doesn't feel like something Tolkien would include, even if he got into an enumeration of businesses. I could see the list including grocers and butchers and saddle-makers and haberdashers and apothecaries. But not dentists.

Does that make any sense?

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying toothache doesn't exist in (your) Middle-earth? Tolkien doesn't describe his characters going to the bathroom either - but then very few novels do.

More generally, I think you might be falling into the trap of constructing the world primarily or even solely to replicate what Tolkien described in his stories, rather than as a setting for new adventures. I think TOR skirts close to this at times, the way the rules force you to have 'Fellowship-like' adventures, so it is something I strongly resist, even to the point of including things that seem un-Tolkienesque, in the interests of a more immersive and interesting setting.

[Rich H]

But that doesn't feel like something Tolkien would include, even if he got into an enumeration of businesses. I could see the list including grocers and butchers and saddle-makers and haberdashers and apothecaries. But not dentists.

... Because I think mentioning the businesses in such respect would be to provide a certain feel. Personally, mentioning bawdy dives and taverns, drug dens and brothels is that you're in the seedy and bad part of town. For me it provides atmosphere but also hints to the players/PCs to "be on your guard".

[Rich H]

... it is something I strongly resist, even to the point of including things that seem un-Tolkienesque, in the interests of a more immersive and interesting setting.

That's an interesting point you raise and I wonder if I've also done that albeit subconsciously. Did you specifically go out to do this right from the start or is it something that developed over time?

[torus]

... it is something I strongly resist, even to the point of including things that seem un-Tolkienesque, in the interests of a more immersive and interesting setting.

That's an interesting point you raise and I wonder if I've also done that albeit subconsciously. Did you specifically go out to do this right from the start or is it something that developed over time?

I've seen it work well in published adventures, both for TOR and MERP. The occasional discordant or jarring element, if integrated cleverly, can add interest and avoids a succession of predictable sub-Tolkien plots and characters. And I certainly prefer my setting to be something more than a dreamlike representation of the backdrop to LotR. The players (and I) have to have the sense that there are new and unexpected things to discover.

[Terisonen]

If I can add my building block... No dentist also in Conan, because the two world are just made to thrill readers. We want to read story, not a bookkeeping treaty

Also heroes never go peeing in story

[Otaku-sempai]

Any place where the consumption of alcohol is legal, there is also the chance of other, darker activities, whether legal or not. The patrons in The Prancing Pony at the time Frodo and company were there definitely gave it a seedy vibe to me. Bree itself in that rainy, cold nighttime scene gave me a seedy vibe for the whole town, though the visuals of Bree from the movie may have influenced my feelings on that. So where in Bree do those more shifty types go after getting their booze? Somewhere else inside the walls? Or outside the town to a nearby place where the real illegal activities happen?

I don't think that Barliman Butterbur would tolerate anything too unsavory taking place in his inn. Even if he doesn't employ someone who acts as a bouncer, I'm sure some of the locals would give him a hand. I'm sure that some shifty activities take place at the abode of Bill Ferny or some cohort of his. TOR's guide to Bree provides some possible meeting places outside of town. It's at least possible that some woman of Bree is willing to provide 'companionship' for a price at her own house. Back in the days of Arnor and Arthedain there could have been a 'cat house' in or near the town. Such business and worse might have taken place at the Forsaken Inn (though at other times the inn might have even been operated by a Dúnadan or by a friend of the Rangers).

Btw, it's about 90 miles or so from Bree to the Brandywine Bridge. Tolkien doesn't indicate any inns between those places, but shouldn't we assume at least a couple?

[Glorelendil]

More generally, I think you might be falling into the trap of constructing the world primarily or even solely to replicate what Tolkien described in his stories, rather than as a setting for new adventures.

You don't know me and have never played in one of my games, so I won't take offense that you basically just, at best, patronized me and, at worst, called me unimaginative.

Anyway, it's certainly more challenging to adhere to being Tolkien-esque while also introducing new and interesting elements, from individuals to entire adventures. (And I won't claim to be especially good at it; but I do try.)

I seem to be (so far) alone on my side of this debate, but I'll forge on ahead anyway: to make an analogy, I'm no Tolkien scholar but according to those who are, one of the things Tolkien does in the Hobbit and LOTR is try to use English words of Old English derivation instead of words of Latin or French derivation. And not just when his characters speak (that would be a form of 'realism') but even in his narrative descriptions. All for the purpose of reinforcing, through consistency, the illusion he is weaving.

(As an aside, this is why I thought the youngest dragons in Erebor should have been called Dragonlings or, even better, Wyrmling, instead of Dragonet. Both Dragon and the '-et' suffice are of French derivation. Worm and -ling are Old English by way of Germanic.)

Now, I could imagine that one's reaction might be, "But that limits word choice! Why not mix a few romance words in there to keep things new and exciting?" One could, but Tolkien takes the harder path, because it contributes to the overall poetry of the tale.

I think TOR skirts close to this at times, the way the rules force you to have 'Fellowship-like' adventures, so it is something I strongly resist, even to the point of including things that seem un-Tolkienesque...

But, yes, this further confirms that we're just coming at the game from very different viewpoints. I love how TOR assumes Fellowship-like adventures. I have other itches, too, and games like D&D and Dungeonworld* scratch those itches nicely, so I don't need TOR to be the One Game to Rule Them All. I like it in its niche.

*(I was really hoping to include the new-ish Conan game by Modiphius in the list, but was greatly disappointed by the mechanics.)

....in the interests of a more immersive and interesting setting.

It's so interesting to me that you used the word "immersive" there, because non-Tolkienesque elements (such as, because we keep using that example, brothels) are what break the immersion for me: things that feel out of place kind of yank me out of Middle-earth and leave me in a generic RPG setting.

Maybe the right adjectives is "dream-like": my Middle-earth feels a bit dream-like. Too much gritty reality (too much Westeros?) wakes me up from that dream.

[cuthalion]

This is obviously tricky--not only is (1) the approach of an LM to a game highly subjective, but you're also debating (2) what makes Tolkien feel like Tolkien.

I don't have huge amounts to add, but want to at least add a small voice of support for your view that LOTR is mythological--though, it's also a novel, which is where the 'realism' component comes in, and is part of what makes it so brilliant. The Silmarillion has brilliant characters and very poignant moments, but it's obviously much more of a straight mythology.

As to how you blend that feeling of mythicism with the grittyness, immediacy and believability of LOTR, I think that's very hard. You're example of the dentist is pretty on the nose for me. The minute you start adding all those standard shop names into a town, it gets very WoW very quick. Let alone the dentist--this is downright anachronistic. I'm only intuiting here, but I think dentist as a profession is probably very new. People would have gone to their woods witches or healers only in very extreme cases for healing. Lots things would have just been home, herbal remedies etc.

I'm guessing--but Tolkien would, and did, just have a feeling for it all, because he was so steeped in myth and history. But he was also just weaving his own, subjective view of an idealized past. There isn't anything to say that it's super internally-consistent--just as you point to the clocks etc. If you want to hit his notes, you probably can't do much better than just reading and re-reading right before you LM a session.

But you're right, it's not realistic in all the senses of the word. And although I often think of it as low-fantasy because of the realism and historical grounding (which I like), not only does it have the high-fantasy elements, but it also does tend to avoid low-brow elements such as brothels etc. Sex/love in general is romanticized.

I think you know more about this than I do, but you could probably get a lot about his perspective/aims from looking at the writers he admired and tried to emulate. It's a romantic-novelistic-folkloric-poetic legend of mashup, never to be repeated.