What do you expect or want in a Gondor source book?

[Otaku-sempai]

This is one of my answers to the OP: In reality I’d be happy if Gondor was announced as the next big thing straight after Moria.

Can all of Gondor be put into one source book?

First, forgive me, Dunheved, for editing out most of your post for brevity.

I like your idea of a core guidebook for Gondor as an equivalent to The Heart of the Wild. I do think that the book should include maps and other specifics for Minas Tirith just as HotW provided for the Halls of Thranduil and Rivendell provided for, well, Rivendell. As you state, other specific parts of Gondor can be detailed in additional region guides and adventure books (I've mostly left such adventure books for another discussion, except for where a guide might include several adventures a la Bree and Erebor). What you propose is not very different, really, from a few other thoughts that have been expressed (props especially to torus!).

[Dunheved]

First, forgive me, Dunheved, for editing out most of your post for brevity.

What you propose is not very different, really, from a few other thoughts that have been expressed (props especially to torus!).

Thank you, no apology needed at all: one post as long as that from me is plenty!

And I would whole heartedly agree that many other posts already overlap with my words. I just wanted to answer your OP. In fact so much is suggested I just can't see how it could fit in one book and as Freddy Mercury said ... "I want it all."

(ALSO "and I want it now".. )

[Vartholkur]

I think what made the Darkening of Mirkwood/Heart of the Wild so good was the fact that absent a strong author-driven narrative for these locations the TOR writers were free to embrace the Faerie tale spirit and go wild with their own story and location settings. They should do this again with Gondor. The closer it is set to the war of the Ring the more restrictive it becomes in terms of what is possible to do.

I would love to see Dol Amroth included - its one of those tantalizing locations that add so much depth to the stories when you read them. And the idea of Knights and the chivalric adventures they imply would be fun to see - both as playable characters and as an adventure site. (I don't care whether they include plate armor or not!).

Likewise, I hope for the inclusion of Umbar - Black Numenorean cults, ancient grudges nursed by families during the Kin-Strife, scheming merchants of Pelagrir and Harad, cruel pirate lords, and the clear sunlit waters of the Bay of Belfas...the whole setting is ripe with adventure.

I do not want a city supplement filled with the mundane location sites (i.e. Dentists), it contributes nothing to role play IMHO - this is where the MERP version of this fell down. But murder mysteries, secret magical societies, spies, and thieves planning one last big caper in Minas Tirith could be pretty fun. Perhaps the designers could look at Vornhiem for some inspiration on city-based adventures.

Anyway, I am excited about this!

[Glorelendil]

I think what made the Darkening of Mirkwood/Heart of the Wild so good was the fact that absent a strong author-driven narrative for these locations the TOR writers were free to embrace the Faerie tale spirit and go wild with their own story and location settings. They should do this again with Gondor. The closer it is set to the war of the Ring the more restrictive it becomes in terms of what is possible to do.

I would love to see Dol Amroth included - its one of those tantalizing locations that add so much depth to the stories when you read them. And the idea of Knights and the chivalric adventures they imply would be fun to see - both as playable characters and as an adventure site. (I don't care whether they include plate armor or not!).

Agreed! I can imagine almost Arthurian adventures in Dol Amroth. Captive princesses, enchanted castles, evil knights, scheming witches.

Likewise, I hope for the inclusion of Umbar - Black Numenorean cults, ancient grudges nursed by families during the Kin-Strife, scheming merchants of Pelagrir and Harad, cruel pirate lords, and the clear sunlit waters of the Bay of Belfas...the whole setting is ripe with adventure.

I do not want a city supplement filled with the mundane location sites (i.e. Dentists), it contributes nothing to role play IMHO - this is where the MERP version of this fell down. But murder mysteries, secret magical societies, spies, and thieves planning one last big caper in Minas Tirith could be pretty fun. Perhaps the designers could look at Vornhiem for some inspiration on city-based adventures.

Love it. Very much agree.

[Otaku-sempai]

I would love to see Dol Amroth included - its one of those tantalizing locations that add so much depth to the stories when you read them. And the idea of Knights and the chivalric adventures they imply would be fun to see - both as playable characters and as an adventure site. (I don't care whether they include plate armor or not!).

Agreed, though if Gondor is split up to be covered by more than one region guide, we might not see it right away. The same goes for the city of Pelargir, which would deserve similar attention.

Likewise, I hope for the inclusion of Umbar - Black Numenorean cults, ancient grudges nursed by families during the Kin-Strife, scheming merchants of Pelagrir and Harad, cruel pirate lords, and the clear sunlit waters of the Bay of Belfas...the whole setting is ripe with adventure.

Definitely; if Umbar isn't covered in a guide to Gondor, it should still appear somewhere--and the sooner the better!

I do not want a city supplement filled with the mundane location sites (i.e. Dentists), it contributes nothing to role play IMHO - this is where the MERP version of this fell down. But murder mysteries, secret magical societies, spies, and thieves planning one last big caper in Minas Tirith could be pretty fun. Perhaps the designers could look at Vornhiem for some inspiration on city-based adventures.

Anyway, I am excited about this!

Yes, too much detail could easily bog down a look at Minas Tirith. However, too little coverage would not do either. TOR's guides to Lake-town, Dale, Erebor, etc. provide a good template; we do need to know how the levels break down into districts, what kind of businesses can be found in those districts, a feeling for the daily lives of the residents (both of high and low class), notable places and characters, and so forth.

[Rich H]

Yes, too much detail could easily bog down a look at Minas Tirith. However, too little coverage would not do either. TOR's guides to Lake-town, Dale, Erebor, etc. provide a good template; we do need to know how the levels break down into districts, what kind of businesses can be found in those districts, a feeling for the daily lives of the residents (both of high and low class), notable places and characters, and so forth.

For me this is critical. Without decent coverage of the mundane then the more unusual elements (secret societies, etc) and the more fantastical ones (witches, etc) would be pastiche and contrived and feel hollow. Although I felt a bit short changed by the page count of Dale within the Erebor supplement I enjoyed the broad detail along with the focus on specific shops, places of note, or people within each area as specific examples. Providing these things can help in bringing a place to life as well as potential adventure seeds. And coupled with the more faerie tale stuff gives me the perfect combination and balance. I'd like to see a similar approach for Minas Tirith but with a greater page count as it's, well, *the* city of the Third Age *and* a damn sight bigger than Dale.

[Otaku-sempai]

For me this is critical. Without decent coverage of the mundane then the more unusual elements (secret societies, etc) and the more fantastical ones (witches, etc) would be pastiche and contrived and feel hollow. Although I felt a bit short changed by the page count of Dale within the Erebor supplement I enjoyed the broad detail along with the focus on specific shops, places of note, or people within each area as specific examples. Providing these things can help in bringing a place to life as well as potential adventure seeds. And coupled with the more faerie tale stuff gives me the perfect combination and balance. I'd like to see a similar approach for Minas Tirith but with a greater page count as it's, well, *the* city of the Third Age *and* a damn sight bigger than Dale.

Agreed! Even reducing the detail provided in MERP's sourcebook for Minas Tirith, that would still have had a formidable page-count.

[Rich H]

Agreed! Even reducing the detail provided in MERP's sourcebook for Minas Tirith, that would still have had a formidable page-count.

Indeed! As an aside, I like the balance C7 has taken so far, although it can be light in some areas it is much preferable than the old MERP stuff in my opinion which far too often read like a dry academic text. Reading MERP I never really got an idea of what a campaign set in M-e should be like; that's the exact opposite with TOR.

[Vartholkur]

Agreed with everyone re: mundane details in Minas Tirith as contrast for the more fantastical elements. But not too many of them!

I think its hard to do big cities for rpg's well. There are a few good examples over the years, that Monte Cook one for D&D in the 90's, or the old City State of the Invincible Overlord. But I think the best one in recent years is the OSR classic Vornheim which does not map the city at all - but provides a random generator that makes the city happen differently for each group. I don't think Minas Tirith should copy that wholesale (it's a wildly different flavored game!) but elements of it might work well. Likewise, the random tables for people you meet in Vornheim are fantastically generative and you could probably create something like them for MT (with a VERY different flavor). I also think it should be a bigger book than Dale/Erebor!

I also really agree re: MERP - I loved it in its day (and have stolen some things from it for my own TOR game), but there were details that were unrelated to the actual gaming your group would do. MERP also (with a few noted exceptions like Court of Ardor, Shadow on the South, and the Northern Wastes) seemed kind of hidebound - trapped in a very narrow view of Middle Earth.

Anyway, I am really excited about this.

[torus]

Minas Tirith was one of the weaker MERP modules unfortunately. As far as city descriptions go, the best one ICE did was probably Thieves of Tharbad. Plenty of intrigue and atmosphere.

My feeling so far is that the TOR settting books have been good but could be better. I find them a little too wide ranging and superficial in their details, too many general overviews of places and a shortage of locations and smaller-scale regional maps. I don't need encyclopedic coverage; in truth I'd like them to cover less territory and flesh out more people, places and landscapes. If there was to be one book covering all of Gondor (and Umbar!), I think it would be of little use.