Shadow for killing innocuous orcs

[Rich H]

characters are going to accrue Shadow Points and when they do it isn't the GM punishing the players for their Misdeeds. Often performing a Misdeed is something that has to be done; it is ultimately the 'right thing to do' but that doesn't mean it is easy or that such actions do not have a price that is paid by the PCs

Yes, this is exactly what I was clumsily trying to get across! I can see the argument that warning the players that they're about to gain Shadow points can break immersion (and indeed it's probably not necessary if the players should really already know it), but I would do it so that the player can decide if it's something they want their character to do despite the Shadow point gain, i.e. if it's worth the price to their "spiritual health", for want of a better term.

I think TOR actually states that you should warn the players of any Shadow gained through "Misdeeds", although I do wish that they'd used a different word for such a thing as those just reading the headline elements of the rules are interpreting things incorrectly in my opinion - ie, as punishment for misdeeds when if you read the full text its more like we have described.

[Rich H]

but if you ask any of the free people in Middle-Earth that can orcs be redeemed, I am sure they'd give you very queer looks.

You've sorta missed the point. It doesn't matter if they are or not (re: redeemable). It is the act, even if its the right thing to do, that weighs upon a player-hero. That's what the Shadow gain relates to; not whether they've killed/poisoned something thats irredeemable or not. The deeds perfomed, even if they were for a greater good and the right thing to do, still weigh a character down with guilt and doubt (or whatever appropriate explanation work for each character at each point in time) and only through resting and healing do characters recover (assuming these are temporary SPs we're talking about).

[Butterfingers]

No I didn't miss the point, all I said in MY game this is the way things are. And I said that everybody can choose how to handle these things. I am not trying to force feed my opionions, I am granting you the free will, see?

And I did mention too, that the deed itself could be a misdeed even if you did to and evil race. Like poisoning, or mutilating, torturing etc. These should be fairly obvious. Killing a defenceless orc is in MY book lesser thing than poisoning them and then killing them... what if you encounter a posse of sleeping goblins, and have an opportunity to kill them all? do you leave them alone, or do you wake them up first and then kill them?

I don't think we should judge these things from our modern, realistic perspective. We're talking about fantasy after all, where good and evil, light and shadow, have fought for several thousands of years. People remember the wrongs suffered (not just dwarves), and I think they'd give no quarter to goblins nor any mercy. But that's just my conservative self talking here.

[Rich H]

I don't think we should judge these things from our modern, realistic perspective. We're talking about fantasy after all, where good and evil, light and shadow, have fought for several thousands of years. People remember the wrongs suffered (not just dawrves), and I think they'd give no quarter to goblins nor any mercy. But that's just my conservative self talking here.

And they'd still get Shadow Points. Its the way the world works, it isn't a punishment and shouldn't be levied by LMs nor seen as players as such. If people got this idea out of their heads they'd be fine with the accrual of SP for their characters, that's what I'm saying some people aren't really getting. Accept that SPs are going to be gained and use those times to add some real RPing opportunities for your character to express doubt or to be convinced he is doing the right thing, etc.

[Ghorin]

If my memory is fine (Silmarillon and other Tolkien works), Orcs and goblins were created by Morgoth from Elves prisoners put to torture and corruption. And since that time, Orcs and Goblins have always hated their creator for that forfeit (probably because of the miserable life Morgoth gave them). Thus I think that they're prisoner of their own condition and culture and aren't able to "think" about getting free of it. They might be evil in acts and thoughts, still they're victim of their creator. And they are creatures of Arda, like all others.
Now of course, any of the free people would never say that orcs can be redeemed (and probably that they can't) but that doesn't mean that they should be killed when they mean absolutely no danger.
And as said before, getting Shadow points isn't a punishment, it's a normal step in Middle Earth, the same than loosing Shadow isn't a reward. And we don't get Shadow because of the target (Orcs, free people ...) but because of the act.

To answer to a question asked yesterday night : The PCs didn't use Poison in the food, they only put strong spices or other ingredient to give the Orcs stomach illness => no Orc or Goblin died of this. If they had used poison, then they would have gotten Shadow points for that action, i remember that as this is indicated in TOR books but i don't remember which one.

PS : Sorry for my unperfect english, i'm french and I try to keep up with you all. And thank you for all your answers, even when they give a different opinion than mine, because it helps me giving to my players a better understanding of my future decision (as Loremaster)

[Ghorin]

I don't think we should judge these things from our modern, realistic perspective. We're talking about fantasy after all, where good and evil, light and shadow, have fought for several thousands of years. People remember the wrongs suffered (not just dawrves), and I think they'd give no quarter to goblins nor any mercy. But that's just my conservative self talking here.

And they'd still get Shadow Points. Its the way the world works, it isn't a punishment and shouldn't be levied by LMs nor seen as players as such. If people got this idea out of their heads they'd be fine with the accrual of SP for their characters, that's what I'm saying some people aren't really getting. Accept that SPs are going to be gained and use those times to add some real RPing opportunities for your character to express doubt or to be convinced he is doing the right thing, etc.

Fully agree

[Rich H]

You know the killing of evil orcs outside of self defence or battle are all ways that the Shadow takes hold of 'good people'. By characters deciding to kill sleeping orcs, as an example, they are using their will to dominate others, sitting in judgement over others and deciding who should live and who should die. They are acting as a god in deciding when someone else's life should end. These are absolutely all elements covered in Tolkien's work and that good people worry and deliberate over; for those very wise know how the Shadow can find root in actions that would appear to be for the greater good. These are all ways the Shadow takes hold... The killing of sleeping orcs means they will never trouble the free world again but what price have the people paid carrying out such actions? That's how Shadow works; even when fighting against it, characters are exposed to it. By killing these orcs they haven't necessarily done the wrong thing but such actions do have a (cosmic) price that is paid.

To me, this all seems to be absolutely how the game should play out. It provides us with the most interesting RPing opportunities and is completely in keeping with Tolkien's fiction - it is tragic and poignant that people protecting their own folk from the evils around them should risk themselves succumbing to that greater darkness through their own actions. What more could you ask of a game to explore such things and for them to play out in the greatest of fantasy worlds?

[Rich H]

PS : Sorry for my unperfect english, i'm french and I try to keep up with you all. And thank you for all your answers, even when they give a different opinion than mine, because it helps me giving to my players a better understanding of my future decision (as Loremaster)

There's absolutely no need to apologise. The points you've raised and your own thoughts have been made very well. I often find it amazing how folks come on here and express themselves so eloquently when english isn't their first language; this thread and your posts are a great example of that.

[Ghorin]

Thanks Rich H, i use english every day at work and "google traduction" is my friend even if at work we don't use much words that concern The One Ring and Tolkien universe and roleplaying.

[Glorelendil]

I don't think we should judge these things from our modern, realistic perspective. We're talking about fantasy after all, where good and evil, light and shadow, have fought for several thousands of years. People remember the wrongs suffered (not just dwarves), and I think they'd give no quarter to goblins nor any mercy. But that's just my conservative self talking here.

Yes, it is a fantasy world. One that is very explicitly about the corrupting influence of the Shadow, for which our notions of Good & Evil are merely an approximation or metaphor. To allow unnecessary killing, or even necessary killing, without triggering the Shadow mechanic is to leave out a crucial piece of the setting.