Shadow for killing innocuous orcs

[Rich H]

I wonder if a part of the disagreements here arise from semantics. I would never describe the Orcs in this adventure as 'innocuous'. They are temporarily incapacitated, but give them some time to recover and they would be perfectly happy to stick the heroes with something sharp and pointy.

Not really as the discussion has moved beyond the OP's example - eg, sleeping orcs have been discussed as well as other events, etc.

[Rich H]

But think a moment, if we all agreed that shadow points are in fact way of punishing the companions/players, would it change the way you use the rules on shadow and hope?

I'm not sure how to engage with this as it feels like a bit of a trap. One minute you're saying don't get hung up on calling things a punishment, the next you talk about punishments but then state you're joking and then you ask if we all agree awarding SPs are in fact a way of punishing then would it change the way you use the rules... So I don't agree that getting SPs is a punishment, in my own opinion, regarding how I want to run games and think they should be run and also as per the RAW (reasons as previously stated/discussed by me and many others here). I therefore can't answer your question honestly.

That's why killing innocuous orcs should, in my opinion, grant Shadow points.
As you very well say, "simply by resorting to negative feelings, like anger and hate you become the vessel of the dark side".

When a hero has a goblin before him that is asleep, or has surrendered, or whatever, and chooses to kill him (for the greater good or whatever other justification, the same as Boromir justified to himself taking the Ring from Frodo), he is resorting to his negative feelings instead of to the positive ones. Bilbo stopping himself from backstabbing Gollum is the quintaessential example of the opposite.

Well said.

I'm pretty content that after this discussion, and considering the views of gamers and/or Tolkien scholars on here with regard to how this works, I'm in alignment and handling it in the right way as per what is fun and interesting at the table and as per the cosmology etc of Middle-earth. I've pretty much said all I want or need to say on the matter; well, until another thread like it pops up!

At least its not Deadly Archery, eh Glor?

[Butterfingers]

I'm not sure how to engage with this as it feels like a bit of a trap. One minute you're saying don't get hung up on calling things a punishment, the next you talk about punishments but then state you're joking and then you ask if we all agree awarding SPs are in fact a way of punishing then would it change the way you use the rules... So I don't agree that getting SPs is a punishment, in my own opinion, regarding how I want to run games and think they should be run and also as per the RAW (reasons as previously stated/discussed by me and many others here). I therefore can't answer your question honestly.

Now is that playing fair, Rich? Since you accused me of penalising my players like it was a bad thing? I thought it only fair to imagine if that was the case, and would it make a difference? You seem to think it does, while I think not?

But I feel this discussion is getting somewhere now:

That's why killing innocuous orcs should, in my opinion, grant Shadow points.
As you very well say, "simply by resorting to negative feelings, like anger and hate you become the vessel of the dark side".

When a hero has a goblin before him that is asleep, or has surrendered, or whatever, and chooses to kill him (for the greater good or whatever other justification, the same as Boromir justified to himself taking the Ring from Frodo), he is resorting to his negative feelings instead of to the positive ones. Bilbo stopping himself from backstabbing Gollum is the quintaessential example of the opposite.

Feelings are tricky things. As you say Falenthal, in SW using or giving in to your negative feelings can give you extra powers but they also inevitably lead to evil deeds. But I think this is an important difference to misdeeds in TOR. In the latter, misdeeds are evil/selfish acts, not just feelings. It's true these misdeeds can be caused by feelings like hate, selfishness etc. but the majority here have been arguing for pages in this thread that you intentions or feelings for committing misdeeds don't matter. You can commit them for 'the best reasons' I think someone wrote? Whereas I argued there must be a malign/evil/selfish etc. intent. and that maybe it's not a misdeed if there's no evil intent?

Whereas in SW you can use the force to destroy an entire Death Star full Imperials (many if not most of them innocuous I bet?) without it affecting you in any way, apparently? Obi-Wan even eggs Luke to do it. just think happy thoughts and pull the trigger, eh? Imagine the amount of shadow points Luke would get in TOR for that with you as the LM?

Another thing about feelings is that you don't usually choose what you feel, you can only control or suppress your feelings. Feelings are instictive, not rational. When you get negative traits, you have to deal with these negative feelings which hinder your rational functioning. They're mostly feelings aren' they?

[Otaku-sempai]

Not really as the discussion has moved beyond the OP's example - eg, sleeping orcs have been discussed as well as other events, etc.

True, but that characterization does keep cropping up (or I wouldn't have brought it up again myself). Sleeping Orcs are just as harmless, at least until they are awakened. Maybe more so; one of the incapacitated goblins could arguably make an effort to overcome his fit of illness and attack the heroes. At that point their response becomes self-defense.

I agree that the entire topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed and we are at the point where we are largely spinning our wheels (myself included).

[Otaku-sempai]

In this adventure, that's right that the Orcs won't stay innocuous for more than a moment (few hours I would say) and then they might run after the PCs and threaten them. But still at the very moment the 3 Orcs were killed, they were innocuous. And as already said, even a good decision might give Shadow points. And here that would be for some cowardy action as I believe the Dwarf and (lesser) the Hobbit won't boast in taverns of having killed a innocuous orcs that were disarmed, vomiting their guts and turning their back.

Oh, I haven't changed my mind. I still agree with you that killing the Orcs while they are incapacitated is less than honorable, maybe even cowardly, and could be counted as a Misdeed (unless the Orcs rally through their illness and attempt to oppose the heroes anyway). I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Rich H]

Now is that playing fair, Rich? Since you accused me of penalising my players like it was a bad thing? I thought it only fair to imagine if that was the case, and would it make a difference? You seem to think it does, while I think not?

I genuinely have no idea what you're on about.

I agree that the entire topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed and we are at the point where we are largely spinning our wheels (myself included).

Yep.

[Rich H]

Like Galadriel said, even if the mightiest and purest person who gets the ring has all the best intentions, in the end all their work turns into evil.

Yep, even with the best intentions, without evil in your heart or intent of malice, the Shadow subverts you and what you do. You commit a misdeed, even without malice, and the Shadow takes root.

[Ghorin]

...
Oh, I haven't changed my mind. I still agree with you that killing the Orcs while they are incapacitated is less than honorable, maybe even cowardly, and could be counted as a Misdeed (unless the Orcs rally through their illness and attempt to oppose the heroes anyway). I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

I'm the one who is sorry : I have read again your previous post and i see that i misunderstood it.

I agree that the entire topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed and we are at the point where we are largely spinning our wheels (myself included).

I also agree. I was the one who started this thread and I never imagine that it would have given such a passionnate talking. Thanks a lot to all of you, whatever your opinion was on that subject, our differences make our talks more intereresting

[Rich H]

Thanks a lot to all of you, whatever your opinion was on that subject, our differences make our talks more intereresting

You're more than welcome and I'm not speaking just on my behalf; I'm sure that we're all genuinely happy you've gotten value out of this and are a lot more confident about your approach when running the game.

[Falenthal]

Imagine the amount of shadow points Luke would get in TOR for [destroyin an entire Death Star full Imperials (many if not most of them innocuous)] with you as the LM?

I would have to read about the possible traumas that afflicted the pilots of the Enola Gay for the rest of their lives to have a documented answer.
For starters, I don't belive they did sleep very well that night.