Valter's plan in Kinstrife

[Corvo]

In “Kinstrife and Dark Tidings” Valter is bent on carving a kingdom in the beorning's lands.
My only doubt is “how does he think to deal with Beorn himself?”

My heroes are about to begin that adventure, and I need to have a good answer to such question*. Probably I'll modify the adventure a lot, but I need to know Valter's motives and plans to have him act believably.
Does he have some “secret veapon”? Does he plan on taking hostages at Stonyford to blackmail Beorn? The Gibbet King gave him something/someone to stop Beorn?

What's your thoughts?

*Saying “he's a deluded fool”, or “he doesn't know enough of Beorn” aren't viable answers for me. Because such answers makes the PCs (and Oderic's) actions meaningless (“no need for heroism, soon Beorn will just smash'em” )

[Rich H]

... Because such answers makes the PCs (and Oderic's) actions meaningless (“no need for heroism, soon Beorn will just smash'em” )

Although that may well be true, in the opinion of the PCs, its not much comfort for all those Beornings getting slaughtered before Beorn's arrival. The forces of Beorn, and himself, need someone to rouse them; in my campaign, this is what the PCs did... They discovered the camp of outlaws in the woods and immediately turned around and ran back to Beorn, stopping at Stonyford to warn them. Tragically, Stonyford was lost but it's people were led north out of harm's way and the PCs and Beornings met Valter and his outlaws on the fields just north of the burning village.

In “Kinstrife and Dark Tidings” Valter is bent on carving a kingdom in the beorning's lands.
My only doubt is “how does he think to deal with Beorn himself?”

My heroes are about to begin that adventure, and I need to have a good answer to such question*. Probably I'll modify the adventure a lot, but I need to know Valter's motives and plans to have him act believably.
Does he have some “secret veapon”? Does he plan on taking hostages at Stonyford to blackmail Beorn? The Gibbet King gave him something/someone to stop Beorn?

What's your thoughts?

If you're linking him to the Gibbet King then TfW does say that Valtar is merely a distraction - he's being used by a greater evil. He (Valter) carries a mummified human head though; perhaps he believes, or has been led to believe, that fetish will somehow weaken Beorn and stop him from changing into the great bear when he is in close proximity to it?

[Mytholder]

If you go too far down that line of thought, you'll cut off a lot of plot lines (why save Rivendell? Elrond will do it). Beorn can stop Valter, but there'll be a lot more unnecessary bloodshed if the PCs don't act.

For a more Watsonian take on the situation, remember that the Beornings are a brand-new culture. For as long as anyone can remember, Beorn's been that big guy with the bees who doesn't like visitors. Beorn engaging with the outside world is a new phenomenon, and Valter's gambling that it's a temporary one. He's hoping that Beorn will go "this chieftain nonsense is too much bother - I'm going home to my beehives". He plans to conquer the southern parts of the Beorning territory (or better, have the Beornings bow to him when Beorn goes home). If he can avoid confronting Beorn himself, so much the better - he has no intention of ever attacking Beorn's homestead, at least not in the foreseeable future.

[Corvo]

Minor act of necromancy: I reanimate that old thread of mine because now I got the time for a proper answer.

@Mytholder believe me: expressing disagreement without sounding hostile, in a foreign language, in the internet, is pretty energy-consuming
In the last months I was always writing on the hurry so I avoided the discussion. Tonight I got some time to spare, so let me explain my pov. By the way, I played the adventure 2 months ago, and the players enjoyed it

If you go too far down that line of thought, you'll cut off a lot of plot lines (why save Rivendell? Elrond will do it). Beorn can stop Valter, but there'll be a lot more unnecessary bloodshed if the PCs don't act.

For a more Watsonian take on the situation (....)

I think “that line of thought” isn't so dangerous in Middle-earth and particularly in TOR as in other worlds/games: even mighty Gandalf, Balrog duelist extraordinaire, had to climb a tree to escape some wolves. We know that a lucky goblin arrow can fell Elrond.

My problem is (was) that Beorn is pretty famous for barrelling through an huge orcish army. Even if Valter is a madman that don't care, sure his men are pretty scared of that beast.

So I thought about a solution: horse archers. Even Smaug was felled with an arrow. And Bolg's orcs were hemmed between three armies when Beorn surprised their rearguard.
If the horse archers can face Beorn in daylight, in open ground, Valter is confident that they can keep the distance and pepper him with arrows till the beast is crippled or exhausted from blood loss. Corrida style, if you want. To this effect, I increased the number of horses in Valter's army (my fellowship is on horses too, so the chase wasn't a problem).

Tactically, Valter aim was to avoid being cornered by Beorn with the back to the river: for this reason it was imperative for him to cross the Anduin quickly and gain the open plains on the east bank. In the end, the heroes, Osred, Ennalda and many others managed to keep the ford long enough for Beorn to re-enact the Battle of the Five Armies...

[Elmoth]

NIce idea. Gives Valten's army an old rohirrim style that also fits with the old inhabitants of the area. You can build from there as well.

[zedturtle]

For a more Watsonian take on the situation, remember that the Beornings are a brand-new culture. For as long as anyone can remember, Beorn's been that big guy with the bees who doesn't like visitors. Beorn engaging with the outside world is a new phenomenon, and Valter's gambling that it's a temporary one. He's hoping that Beorn will go "this chieftain nonsense is too much bother - I'm going home to my beehives". He plans to conquer the southern parts of the Beorning territory (or better, have the Beornings bow to him when Beorn goes home). If he can avoid confronting Beorn himself, so much the better - he has no intention of ever attacking Beorn's homestead, at least not in the foreseeable future.

Yep, my players didn't challenge things very much, but this was my take on the whole thing. Valter's being goaded by the Gibbet King into believing that Beorn won't contest losing a few guards at the Old Ford and a village at the edge of his land. It also helps that I had introduced another character who had set the old guards (Jonar et al) against Baldor. When he turned up itn Valter's camp, the players had no trouble believing that he'd convinced Valter to attack.

And yes, I also played up the horses of Valter's army; but I wasn't so explicit in their plan to deal with Beorn.

[doctheweasel]

We are also working under the assumption that Valter is a rational actor.

I see him more driven by pride. Add to that a supernatural ally in his corner (or at least he believes) who whispers promises of success in his ear, and Valter thinks he can take on all comers.

[Beran]

In “Kinstrife and Dark Tidings” Valter is bent on carving a kingdom in the beorning's lands.
My only doubt is “how does he think to deal with Beorn himself?”

A good ol' fashioned assassination attempt?

[PipeSmoker]

SPOILERS of sort in this!!! Be warned!!!

This matter, Beorn the Allmighty, came to my mind too when running this WONDERFUL adventure last spring.

I made the outlaw camp bigger, with more men coming. Valter's small ARMY comprised renegades from mixed cultures and mercenaries (woodmen outlaws, esterlings soldiers, southrons of sort and yes, rengades from Rohan and Leofrings to form a dreaded cavalry unit). Not just outlaws. Valter is a born leader of men with an evil purpose and with some heritage from Dale of old, in the times of Girion...
I though Valter planned to wreck some random havok in Beornia, make the situation between free men go to suspicion and distrust and then evaluate the best route to join the rising tension between Dale and Esgaroth... that was his goal, to sell his sword in the outbreaking war he was propelling. All of this is linked with The Crossing of Celduin. Had he survived in Beornia (did he died at all?), he would show up again at that battle.

AND consider the heroes are supposed to be there, at Valter's camp, also to give Beorn the warning, give him time to raise a force to resist and meet Valter's lot at Gloomy Fold, or have some nasty lot running rampart and shedding blood through his crops and farmsteads, here and there. If the battle is to take place somewhere else than Gloomy Fold you have plenty of room to design something different, maybe tragic and soaked in blood. It's not that difficult and this adventure is MARVELLOUS for the chance it gives to broaden the scope, the perspective and toss your heroes into something really big, something that really matters, something that is to be recorded in the collective memory of Rhovanion, Gibbet King aside.
EDIT: What if the heroes fail to warn Beorn? What if the Skinchanger is forced to face a scatterd lot in his domain? Valter's plan includes a great dose of subtlety and is not aimed at confronting Beorn directly on the field, not immediatly at least... The battle at Gloomy Fold is something Valter trips in, not something he wants. That scenario is a consequence of the heroes direct intervention, to give you a clearer example.

As a final note, check out The Heart of The Wild for another example of an antagonist to Beorn: Viglund.

I hope this helps, this adventure was by far one of the best experiences me and my mates had in over 20 years of Roleplaying. Praised be the authors. Never enough, really.

[Corvo]

(...)

I made the outlaw camp bigger, with more men coming. Valter's small ARMY comprised renegades from mixed cultures and mercenaries (woodmen outlaws, esterlings soldiers, southrons of sort and yes, rengades from Rohan and Leofrings to form a dreaded cavalry unit). Not just outlaws. Valter is a born leader of men with an evil purpose and with some heritage from Dale of old, in the times of Girion...

I did the same. In my telling Valter's band was 130-150 strong, all mounted, and really multi-ethnic.
And for the same reasons as you: there is room to broaden the scope of the story beyond banditry

and this adventure is MARVELLOUS for the chance it gives to broaden the scope, the perspective and toss your heroes into something really big, something that really matters, something that is to be recorded in the collective memory of Rhovanion, Gibbet King aside.

I agree.

The Heroes of my fellowship are pretty convinced that Valter was an heir of Girion, and that his killing would someday bring consequences.
Pretty aptly, in The Darkening of Mirkwood there are relatives of Valter ready to ask for vengeance and lay claim to Dale's crown.

By the way, in my interpretation of the story Valter was an ally of the Gibbet King, and his attack wasn't meant to be a simple "distraction": he was meant to kill Beorn, to stop him from being that beacon of hope for the people of the Anduin.
In my campaign that was the first battle in Sauron's offensive on Rhovanion.