Getting players to work as a team

[Beran]

Ok, first question that comes to my mind is this a group that games regularly together (ie every week) or is this a group of individuals from the Club Games Day? Forget the concepts that are in place in the game, these guys seem (to me any way) to not have any concept what so ever of team work. To use my group as an example (we've been gaming for about 25+ years)...if we thought the retreating Spiders were still some threat to the party, or anyone in the surrounding area then we would have split the party. One for SAR on the guy being dragged away by the Spider and the other section would be a pursuit unit either actively hunting the Spiders or just running interference for the rescue force.

From the groups behavior I doubt they would view A shadow Point as any great penalty, or they would whine about being penalized for no reason.

[Rich H]

A few words of caution here Sprigg, based on some posts made earlier and especially this:

Rot the SOBs with Shadow.

I would caution against this, if the players chased the spiders away, losing their heads or getting excited in the moment then hitting them with a Shadow Point each is penalising them and really smacks of a GM of the worse kind - using the system to punish behaviour that he doesn't like. Not saying that's necessarily the case but many players will see it as such.

Among other things, Shadow Points can be awarded for misdeeds - examples of 1 point awards are things like threatening violence on someone and lying to continually manipulate people. I don't necessarily think giving chase to spiders and leaving a companion as a side effect of such action is the same thing - although this does depend on how they dealt with it. If they just left showing no regard for the other companion then that's very different to them giving chase without thought to any complications.

Perhaps they'd return to see their friend being dragged into the trees by more spiders and have to fight even harder to save him - that will make them think twice in the future about leaving someone. I also mentioned earlier to find out what motivated them leaving - if they were desperate to kill the creatures for fear they'd return with more help, then that's different to not caring for their comrade and disregarding his safety.

Rather than awarding shadow points, I'd look at who their Fellowship Focus is and perhaps limit the Fellowship Pool; if they have no regard for their Fellowship members then make the Pool off limits to those that display such behaviour - ie, they're RPing that they don't much care for each other so demonstrate this in the game mechanics as no access to the Fellowship Pool (or reduce it's value). Once they start playing as a Fellowship then give them the rules support that has. In other words if the players really aren't playing a fellowship then don't use the fellowship rules - that's not a bad thing. I actually ran my first few adventures like this - the Fellowship forming, and introducing the rules, during the game.

From the groups behavior I doubt they would view A shadow Point as any great penalty, or they would whine about being penalized for no reason.

... I think Beran's spot on here; these kind of players could really dislike such heavy-handed GMing, whether it is heavy handed or not is neither here nor there - it's how these players could perceive it.

If they can't get it, explain Shadow is effectively equivalent to Dark Side Points in Star Wars, and just like Star Wars, once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny...

Okay, that's not really true so I wouldn't explain it like that. Dark Side points are all about misdeeds and embracing the Dark Side, Shadow isn't wholly like that. Temporary Shadow Points can be awarded for misdeeds but it can also be accumulated when a character experiences tragic event, travels blighted lands, etc. As a travellers cloak becomes worn, torn, and muddied from travelling the Wilderlands so too does his spirit. In other words temporary Shadow points are not a gauge of how evil and dark someone is - they are a reflection of how worn a character's spirit has become, what ills they have witnessed in their travels, and sometime what misdeeds they have committed. When a character obtains Permanent Shadow then the Shadow has then started to impact upon them and colour their personality and perceptions. This does eventually lead them down a darker and darker path so is slightly more analogous to the Dark Side, although not in the same wilful sense that the Dark Side exhibits on it's followers - Shadow just doesn't do that.

I've described Shadow accrual as a natural part of the game so I award Shadow Points. My players therefore don't see them as me penalising their behaviour as they are a natural part of the game and a hazard that adventurers and heroes subject themselves to in order to protect the things they love. I think having a 'healthy attitude' to Shadow from a player/GM point of view is critical to the successful running of TOR, at least for me and my group, it may be different for others and they may try and use Shadow as a way of penalising players and 'forcing' their 'correct' behaviour. I don't think this needs to be done so overtly, I don't do such a thing and I get to the same outcome that players know the risks that Shadow poses to their characters and they either self regulate regarding this or not.

[Angelalex242]

Admittedly, I was thinking more of the deleterious and 'lose your characterness' of Permanent Shadow over the annoyance factor of Temporary Shadow. Temporary Shadow is almost like having a really rotten day at work. It sucks, but if you do something you enjoy long enough, it'll go away. In TOR, that means making a song or craft roll, but I keep thinking that some characters might enjoy other things enough to drive Temp Shadow back.

[Mim]

While the posts about the weight of Shadow are pertinent in terms of the rules, I'd caution anyone against overusing Shadow. Re-read Rich's excellent response.

In addition, I'd recommend that everyone scroll back & read Stormcrow's point about friendship & loyalty.

Tolkien's heroes largely stood by each other, & those that did not rarely ended well. IMHO, this is a point that strikes to the heart of the original question about the battle against the Spiders.

[Sprigg]

@ Beran- We're all friends and we've been playing together for about three or four years now and two of the guys have been doing it longer than that, so we generally have a good handle on the types of characters each other tend to make.

I don't like the ideas of 'punishing' players with shadow points, it feels like that would simply diminish the impact of Shadow in the overall narrative and in the structure of the game. I've not spoken with the players specifically about it yet, but more than likely they were simply trying to fend off the attack with the thought of survival first- they were ambushed in their sleep. They did come to the aid of the paralyzed character, but only after finishing off the spiders.

It was a very cinematic, satisfying encounter; they just didn't operate how I expected them to, and that may be partly due to the largely-undefined nature of those two particular characters. They aren't as concrete in terms of personality and focus yet. But I definitely don't see this as worthy of shadow- except maybe for the character who had the Beorning as a focus. In the end, they did come to the aid of their companion, after all. If it becomes a pattern, then it'll be something to bring up, as that is probably a sign of a somewhat dysfunctional fellowship on some level, but it'll need a few sessions before I can really judge how it's going.

Frankly the thought just occurred to me that, coming from PF/3.5, they may just be enjoying the combat-badassery and flexibility they have in this game when it comes to describing their own actions, and the freedom they have to improvise during such scenes compared to those in more rules-heavy systems. Once they get through the end of the marsh bell, they should be back in a more roleplay-heavy environment and I'm trying to wean them (and myself to some extent) off of the 'have-to-have-combat-every-session' mindset.

[Stormcrow]

I don't like the ideas of 'punishing' players with shadow points

Don't punish them, but don't be shy about assigning them, either. Tolkien is not black and white, but he is fairly absolute: decisions are objectively either right or wrong. Use the tables found in the Loremaster's Guide whenever something relevant happens because in the world of Middle-earth that's how much Shadow you get when you do or witness one of those things. If you leave a wounded friend to chase spiders who will be a tactical threat later, you get a Shadow point, because wise or not it is the morally wrong choice. In Tolkien, personal relationships always trump the greater good; if you sacrifice friendship to choose the greater good, you get Shadow.

[Beran]

@ Beran- We're all friends and we've been playing together for about three or four years now and two of the guys have been doing it longer than that, so we generally have a good handle on the types of characters each other tend to make.

Well, seems like a Retreat at Rivendell might be in order to work on the team work skills.

Frankly the thought just occurred to me that, coming from PF/3.5, they may just be enjoying the combat-badassery and flexibility they have in this game when it comes to describing their own actions, and the freedom they have to improvise during such scenes compared to those in more rules-heavy systems. Once they get through the end of the marsh bell, they should be back in a more roleplay-heavy environment and I'm trying to wean them (and myself to some extent) off of the 'have-to-have-combat-every-session' mindset.

Glad to hear it, but what happened to the guys being dragged off by the spider?

[Sprigg]

Stormcrow- yeah, I see what you're saying. I was actually able to incorporate that somewhat into the next session through an NPC, albeit indirectly, and they showed a much better focus on teamwork (and ingenuity) last night.

Beran- well, one of the unhindered players used her shield to propel the other as he jumped up over her, and he managed to grab into the poor guys legs. Woodman added her weight, they all dropped as the web broke, cut him free and they escaped with their lives.