Skilled Characters

[Yusei]

I, too, think rolls are becoming too easy too quickly. My PCs can destroy a troup of orcs fairly easily, and rarely fails a Corruption test now. I could throw trolls at them, or stronger orcs, but I don't want to. They are in the same region, orcs did not suddenly become stronger when they did. The world is not more dangerous than it was before. Mirkwood is not more difficult to cross on the Elf road.

Since they are heroes, they face bigger challenges than everyday trolls. Our last couple of sessions revolved around Giants, and, thankfully, they did not try to fight them. But I won't put giants and dragons in every adventures, like I could in a D&D game.

As a result, as they become stronger, fights become less important. They usually are in a sure-win or sure-loss situation. I don't think it matters, and I can still give them a good fight once in a while. Games become more political, and more about making choices. I like that. However, I think being immune to corruption and fear matters a lot. I am seriously considering allowing craft/song rolls to get rid of shadow only in sanctuaries. And only one at a time.

Maybe I am too Cthulhu-minded with Shadow, but I am under the impression that it is a huge part of the game, and that players should be afraid of it, like they were when we played through TfW. They are now treating it like a minor annoyance.

[LukeZ]

Why/how they should have low hope? During all the sessions their hope has waned and waxed, but their maximum is always the same...

They just used 1 or 2 Hope points for session?

As an average, yes 2 points per session (maybe something more).
Sometimes (rarely) they gain an extra hope point during the session. Everyone has taken the Confidence Virtue once. And now, they rarely have to spend Hope (since they rarely fail their rolls).
So when you are an expert, you easily start to accumulate again Hope, returning easily to your maximum.

[Rich H]

They are in the same region, orcs did not suddenly become stronger when they did. The world is not more dangerous than it was before. Mirkwood is not more difficult to cross on the Elf road.

It may be set in the same setting and area but not all areas within the setting are the same. As PCs advance rather than engaging orc patrols they may investigate the mountains of Mirkwood or other strongholds of the enemy where I'd certainly expect them to face more dangerous opponents. With regards to the elf road, no that wouldn't change, but what if the fellowship were tasked with other quests that took them off the more well-trodden paths and into the deep of Mirkwood? Wouldn't that be more challenging and suitable for more experienced heroes?

As a result, as they become stronger, fights become less important.

Well, not necessarily, as referred to in my above response.

Games become more political...

They don't have to though and I'd feel sorry for a player and/or character that begins his life of adventure defending his lands and then the game changes to one which is more political. Characters don't always develop into such things so we always need to be mindful of that as LMs and I think combat and travel can still remain challenging to experienced PCs, in this game, as I've mentioned. I have tonnes of ideas for scenarios/encounters/etc that I simply can't run with my group as their PCs aren't advanced enough yet - so the ideas and subject matter is more than available. Personally though, I do like to see that kind of shift. It's why BECMI is my favourite version of D&D, as it has different priorities of play as the game progresses.

However, I think being immune to corruption and fear matters a lot.

Well, more dangerous areas of Wilderland would have higher TNs for Corruption Tests or demand more frequent tests than other areas so they could still be challenging to experienced PCs.

I am seriously considering allowing craft/song rolls to get rid of shadow only in sanctuaries. And only one at a time.

I'm sure you will be but be careful how you present that to the players. They could ask why this has suddenly changed from an internal logic of the gameworld viewpoint, never mind nerfing a rule in the game.

Maybe I am too Cthulhu-minded with Shadow, but I am under the impression that it is a huge part of the game, and that players should be afraid of it, like they were when we played through TfW. They are now treating it like a minor annoyance.

It's an interesting point. Often in RPGs playtest groups very rarely get the chance and/or time to stress test a game system at higher levels and also we all play games similarly but often differently in critical ways. As GMs and players we all have to be mindful and appreciative of this kind of thing.

[BobusX]

Odds of success on a simple roll:

≥TN SL 0 SL 1 SL 2 SL 3 SL 4 SL 5 SL 6
5 58.333 86.111 97.685 99.807 99.994 100.000 100.000
6 50.000 79.167 95.370 99.421 99.961 99.999 100.000
7. 41.667 70.833 91.898 98.650 99.865 99.992 100.000
8. 33.333 62.500 87.037 97.299 99.640 99.970 99.999
9 25.000 54.167 81.019 95.139 99.190 99.910 99.994
10 16.667 45.833 74.074 92.014 98.380 99.775 99.979
11. 8.333 37.500 66.435 87.847 97.055 99.505 99.941
12 8.333 29.167 58.333 82.639 95.062 99.015 99.859
13 8.333 22.222 50.000 76.466 92.265 98.199 99.695
14. 8.333 16.667 41.898 69.483 88.567 96.932 99.396
15 8.333 12.500 34.259 61.960 83.931 95.086 98.889
16 8.333 9.722 27.315 54.167 78.401 92.543 98.085
17 8.333 8.333 21.296 46.373 72.094 89.214 96.880
18 8.333 8.333 16.435 38.850 65.181 85.053 95.165
19 8.333 8.333 12.963 31.867 57.883 80.073 92.838
20 8.333 8.333 10.648 25.694 50.450 74.343 89.817

As you can see, Skill levels of 4+ rapidly trivialize even high difficulty tasks, while skills below 3 can barely accomplish even moderate difficulty tasks. It does seem the power curve is extremely steep, with each point of skill after 1 making a very large difference in odds of success. So while with a strict hold on Hope repleneshment means that Hope will dwindle for PCs as they progress, it becomes almost completely unnecessary at higher power levels.

To me, Skill Levels beyond 3 should be extremely rare, and beyond 4 almost unheard of. At the same time, skills below 3 are only useful with hope or extreme luck. The trait system helps alleviate this, but chances are, the vast majority of new characters will fail probably 70% of their rolls without Hope use. Only their very best skills have a decent chance of success. This becomes especially obvious in Combat and Encounters, due to the high cost of failure (if you didn't spend 6 of your starting skill points in your main weapon, you will miss almost always unless in forward stance, and in Encounters, you will quickly burn up your Tolerance unless you only attempt actions using your 3 rated Skills).

[Rich H]

Out of interest, how many gaming groups have PCs with common skills rated at 4 or higher? And how many 4+ does each character have? On average, per adventure, characters get between 5 and 10 APs in my campaign. As it costs so much to raise a skill from 3 to 4 none of my players have yet, preferring to concentrate on getting skills at 1, 2, or 3.

[Valarian]

My players have gone through a year long campaign and have a couple of 4+ skills, mainly in their preferred weapon skill over common skills. On the common skills side, they've mainly gone for building up skills that haven't had much coverage in the group - ending up with some specialised areas. The previous campaign focussed mainly on travel and fighting evil where found. This is where they focussed their attentions. Now they have reputation and honour, I want to try and start them building on that grounding. The current adventure follows in style from the old campaign but then start bringing in threats from within, again using threads established in the previous campaign.

[Yusei]

As PCs advance rather than engaging orc patrols they may investigate the mountains of Mirkwood or other strongholds of the enemy where I'd certainly expect them to face more dangerous opponents.

That's what I intend to do, even though I'm avoiding the moutains of Mirkwood for now, since it's probably a big part of the upcoming books. However, I can hardly justify giving them dangerous opponents every adventure now. Every once in a while, they will get to do something difficult, but orcs patrols didn't turn into troll patrols overnight.

I'm not saying they never have to fight anymore, but they won't be raiding Dwimmerhorns every day.

I'd feel sorry for a player and/or character that begins his life of adventure defending his lands and then the game changes to one which is more political.

Maybe "diplomatic" would have been a better word than "political". As they face stronger opponents, they talk more, and fight less. That doesn't necessarily make the games more boring. Their last adventure involved giants and goblins. They destroyed the goblins with ease, and negociated with the giants. I don't want to reach a point where they'll be able to destroy giants. And where I'll have to create stronger and stronger opponents.

[Mim]

I mostly agree with Yusei. That said, however, I notice that a few of us have expressed our concern about the apparent lack of foes in lieu of other games, such as the seemingly endless array offered by D&D. I seem to recall one fan posting that his players tire of fighting Orcs every adventure - wasn't that you Yusei?

What I mean is that perhaps LMs can make greater use of Men as servants of the Enemy? After all, the Dominion of Man is just around the corner. Valter the Bloody from TfW is a great example of how a thug gathers his fellows to threaten your player-heroes & their friends. There are renegades from the Free-peoples, as well as Easterlings, Variags of Khand, Dunlendings, Southrons, Corsairs, & you name it. Dare I say it, you can even add the rare Black Númenórean or two

[Aiwendil]

This discussion is interesting; mostly because it reinforces my belief that XPs and APs should be distributed sparingly (i.e. slow progression).

[LukeZ]

We started playing almost 2 years ago. Say something like 80 sessions (once per week), at an average of 4 Advancement Points per session it's 320 Advancement Points.
Going from 0 to 4 costs 40 Advancement Points, so there are a lot of chanches to have various skills at 4+.
Three of my player's characters have 5 skills at 4 (other used skills are at 2 or 3).