Skilled Characters

[adunephel]

having just got my copy of TOR and not having run it yet.
this was one of my first thoughts when I read the experience part, that players would be taking actions constantly to acquire APs.
if I get to run this game I will definitely make it more difficult to get the second and third point.

[Yusei]

I do believe that after 27 adventure phases the heroes should be bearing a lot of shadow with them and would preferably retire.

That's how it shoud be, but that is not actually enforced by the rules. As soon as you get 4 or 5 dice in Craft or Song, it is fairly easy to get rid of shadow, as long as you can find a safe place for your fellowship phases. Only one of the PCs in my group has gained a permanent Shadow Point so far, but I don't think anymore of them will have bouts of madness now, unless they go a very long time without rest and peace.

What I would say is that you have progressed your game far too quickly and so are facing issues that I'm not.

At the very least, I think we can agree that the AP system is too vague, if you had to make it easier to gain APs, and LukeZ or I have to make it harder. As you pointed out, if you're too lenient in the beginning, it is soon too late to change anything.

I'm also not convinced it is a problem of speed. At one point, every character will become virtually immune to fear and corruption. Even if it takes 30 years instead of 10, it is still a bit weird, as it is made very clear in the books that Gandalf is not immune to either.

Seriously, my PCs never failed any corruption test against the big bad at the end of TfW. They were lucky and got some gandalves, sure, but still, they were not impressed.

if I get to run this game I will definitely make it more difficult to get the second and third point.

I would suggest you watch carefully how much XP you award, too. Valour and Wisdom do rise quickly.

[SirKicley]

Just to chime in here:

we play 5-6 hr per session. About 2.5 sessions per Adventuring Phase. (the first half of the first game is the Fellowship Phase lasting 2-3 hours, then the latter half and the following two full sessions are typically one adventure).

Characters finish an Adventuring Phase with 5-9 APs. So about 3-5 per gaming session.

With my hobbit, I've played three full sessions (5-6 hrs each), and I've earned 10 APs. This is the first Adventure for this campaign and we have not had a Fellowship Phase yet (which will ensue at the beginning of our next game).

We play about 3 Adventures per Game Year. That's about 25-30 a year.

This is also true for my campaign that I started last year - and since I pretty much set that pace, the other LM learned the game from me and he's pretty much following suit. For us - this seems to have hit a sweet spot on advancement - it doesn't seem too much or too powerful and still allows for some measure of character growth so that the players feel rewarded.


We do not allow skill test dice rolls for the sake of "more dice rolls and skill checks" just to get a chance at an AP. The rule books do a great job of being transparent on this: "A dice roll (skill test) should only be called for when the LM feels that there's a reason for it."

If a player says "I'm going to climb this tree"; "swim this stream" "sing a song to this tavern goer" or whatever JUST to get to roll, then as LM, I simply narrate that they do a great job in doing so and move on. Remember - skill tests are just that - something that has to be TESTED. This is well covered in the LM book. There has to be a valid reason for the test. This prevents 'grinding' skill advancement, and game time being wasted on non-important aspects of the game. Quite simply, if something being attempted isn't vital to the story or situation with no real ramifications - don't call for a test. Narrate it quickly and move on.

If on the other hand they were climbing that tree to evade a warg that was chasing them, swimming a river to save a drowning victim, or singing a song to inspire hope into an NPC so that they will come out of their catatonia and speak to the PCs.....THEN I call for a skill test.


Finally - the vagueness that is the AP system I feel is purposeful. Simply put - if it was firmly written in stone, then groups of varying playstyles may feel more railroaded into doing it one way over something that is more natural and preferable to that group of players. This way - each group has it's own pace and interpretation of what is suppose to go on. This is the beauty of RPGs vs say Chess. RPGs allow for so much freedom of customization and creativity. There is no one standard form to play an RPG. The more freedom players have, the more fun they tend to have.

As with everything - YMMV.

Robert

[Rich H]

At the very least, I think we can agree that the AP system is too vague, if you had to make it easier to gain APs, and LukeZ or I have to make it harder. As you pointed out, if you're too lenient in the beginning, it is soon too late to change anything.

I totally agree, I couldn't really clarify it within my mind which was also a reason for defining my own rules for it so that I could gauge progress based on them.

I would suggest you watch carefully how much XP you award, too. Valour and Wisdom do rise quickly.

Again, agreed. I think I may be awarding those too quickly. The good thing about that is that I, as LM, can simply ration them more going forward so that they can't be spent so quickly on PC progression whereas APs can be driven by the player.

[SirKicley]

I would suggest you watch carefully how much XP you award, too. Valour and Wisdom do rise quickly.

Again, agreed. I think I may be awarding those too quickly. The good thing about that is that I, as LM, can simply ration them more going forward so that they can't be spent so quickly on PC progression whereas APs can be driven by the player.

And the Lakemen (unfortunately as far as I'm concerned) exacerbates this issue due to their ability to earn many more XP than all other characters.

Robert

[doctheweasel]

And the Lakemen (unfortunately as far as I'm concerned) exacerbates this issue due to their ability to earn many more XP than all other characters.

Which is why I changed it to AP. AP was designed to vary between characters, nut not so much XP.

[SirKicley]

And the Lakemen (unfortunately as far as I'm concerned) exacerbates this issue due to their ability to earn many more XP than all other characters.

Which is why I changed it to AP. AP was designed to vary between characters, nut not so much XP.

That's a good fix. How many extra do they get? 1 extra AP per session?

[Corvo]

I do believe that after 27 adventure phases the heroes should be bearing a lot of shadow with them and would preferably retire.

That's how it shoud be, but that is not actually enforced by the rules. As soon as you get 4 or 5 dice in Craft or Song, it is fairly easy to get rid of shadow, as long as you can find a safe place for your fellowship phases.
(...)
I'm also not convinced it is a problem of speed. At one point, every character will become virtually immune to fear and corruption. Even if it takes 30 years instead of 10, it is still a bit weird, as it is made very clear in the books that Gandalf is not immune to either.

I have to agree with Yusei.
Advancement can be fast or slow, it's not so important to me. What trouble me is that the Shadow, the balancing mechanism of the game, doesn't have enough "bite".
Older charachters are too good at resisting corruption AND at shedding shadow points, while the books (and real life) tell us a different story.

[Rich H]

Possible solutions...

1) Increase all (or key/important) TNs for Valour (Fear) and Wisdom (Corruption) checks* across the board within your game based on what suits you. That way they are very dangerous to starting characters, which I suppose they should be, and if they've been raised by enough then they challenge PCs that are more experienced.

* You could also make it so that gaining Shadow cannot be avoided totally even when succeeding at a Corruption Check. For instance, in my campaign, the bandits in 'Kinstrife' burnt Stonyford and beheaded some villagers sticking their heads on spears. I allowed Corruption Checks but even characters that succeeded were awarded shadow for witnessing such a scene.

2) You could also raise the amount of Shadow Points accrued when a Corruption check is failed thereby increasing the impact on the PC when it occurs and shortening the distance between Hope and Shadow. I've made little tweaks to the Shadow table in my campaign so that it has more impact within the game.

Or, you could do both of the above which would make Shadow of particular high impact in a game.

I've refrained from posting actual increases/tweaks to these elements of the RAW as I think it would be slightly variable for each person's own particular game.

[SirKicley]

Possible solutions...

1) Increase all (or key/important) TNs for Valour (Fear) and Wisdom (Corruption) checks* across the board within your game based on what suits you. That way they are very dangerous to starting characters, which I suppose they should be, and if they've been raised by enough then they challenge PCs that are more experienced.

* You could also make it so that gaining Shadow cannot be avoided totally even when succeeding at a Corruption Check. For instance, in my campaign, the bandits in 'Kinstrife' burnt Stonyford and beheaded some villagers sticking their heads on spears. I allowed Corruption Checks but even characters that succeeded were awarded shadow for witnessing such a scene.

2) You could also raise the amount of Shadow Points accrued when a Corruption check is failed thereby increasing the impact on the PC when it occurs and shortening the distance between Hope and Shadow. I've made little tweaks to the Shadow table in my campaign so that it has more impact within the game.

Or, you could do both of the above which would make Shadow of particular high impact in a game.

I've refrained from posting actual increases/tweaks to these elements of the RAW as I think it would be slightly variable for each person's own particular game.

Good ideas Rich. I too have wondered if it's too easy to remove Shadow. The literary works themselves seem to be rife with more shadow by the main protagonists far more than the PCs seem to deal with - even after several adventures.

Here's one potential "fix" that can be tried.


ACCRUING SHADOW:
Essentially same as described in the book as to "why" it occurs, however make several of the instances an automatic accrual (as opposed to a "corruption" test to avoid). Auto-accrual happens with HALF of the listed amount as RAW (round up), and then Corruption Test to avoid the other half. For the most grievous of occasions, roll a Corruption Test to avoid earning 1 PERMANENT Shadow points on top of the accrued "half" of listed automatic points.

Instead of say "Potentially gaining 2 shadow Points unless a Corruption Test is successful", deal 1 automatic point, and roll for Corruption on the other. Failure of the most grievous (such as oathbreaker), assign 3 automatic, and then roll Corruption Test to avoid an increase of Permanent Shadow by 1 point.


Finally - you can also reduce the speed in which Shadow recovers:

1) Halve the recovery of Shadow points to 1/2/3 (instead of 2/4/6).
2) Allow the 2/4/6 in a Sanctuary only (instead of rolling twice).



Robert