Weapon ranges way too short?

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Stormcrow
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Stormcrow » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:31 pm

Hermes Serpent wrote:As for elves being master archers note that they prefer the shorter bow in TOR due to ease of use in woods.
Short bows derive from hunting bows, and are usually used for that purpose, or for one-on-one fighting such as defending walls. Long bows are made for war and are for attacking at long distances in massed formations.

Elves of Mirkwood would naturally be familiar with short bows because they don't frequently go to war, but they do hunt in the woods. It's not about the trees.
Ferretz wrote:Well, my issue with this limitation in the rules is that most groups, I guess, have at least one player who wants to play the master archer. He'll spend experience on the skill and Virtues and Rewards to increase his archery even more. He even names his bow... and can't hit an orc at 50 yards.
Neither can anyone else.

This is all about player-expectations. He's probably imagining Peter Jackson-inspired action-nonsense, while the game tends toward more realism.

Try this: instead of telling your players measured distances, just refer to distances in relation to bowshots: "the orcs are just out of bowshot." "They're within your bowshot but you're beyond theirs." Let the players imagine what this is.

Ferretz
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Ferretz » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:50 pm

Well, I do believe that an experienced archer can hit a single target at 50 yards with a medieval bow. To be fair, I've never used such a bow my self, but I will check with some friends who're into it, and use long bows as a hobby/sport.

Again, I'm not fond of rules that says "No, you can't!" instead of "You can try, but it'll be difficult." :)

-Eirik

Michebugio
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Michebugio » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:51 pm

Stormcrow wrote:Try this: instead of telling your players measured distances, just refer to distances in relation to bowshots: "the orcs are just out of bowshot." "They're within your bowshot but you're beyond theirs." Let the players imagine what this is.
I love this, hats down.

A simply great solution, Stormcrow: you have the real blood of a Lore Master ;)

Ferretz
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Ferretz » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:01 pm

Michebugio wrote:
Stormcrow wrote:Try this: instead of telling your players measured distances, just refer to distances in relation to bowshots: "the orcs are just out of bowshot." "They're within your bowshot but you're beyond theirs." Let the players imagine what this is.
I love this, hats down.

A simply great solution, Stormcrow: you have the real blood of a Lore Master ;)
I like it. It works very well with the more abstract nature of the combat syste. :)

For those who're curious, here a guy on youtube demonstrating shots with a traditional bow at 30, 50 and 70 meters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pomfqMbXzMg

-Eirik

Tolwen
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Tolwen » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:17 pm

If someone is looking for real-world expertise on comparable real-world weapons (i.e. the famous English Longbow), this book from Osprey Publishing is very informative. In general, Osprey publishes good treatments of military aspects and their books on ancient and medieval topics are very useful as research sources for games as well.

On the specific topic, the author (who makes heavy use of expertise from the British Longbow Society; see here for some information) shows some interesting insights.
For practice shooting on stationary targets (approximately man-sized), distances between 130 to 345 yards are documented (p. 28). Archers at their peak (early adulthood) were (with war and not practice arrows) "required to be able to shoot with accuracy at a range of 220 yd." (p. 33). This matches well with the practice ranges mentioned earlier.
He argues that even though distance shooting in battle was possible, it was possibly not the focus, as it would mean to spend a lot of ammunition in an unfavourable situation, where wounding the enemy was much less likely. At ranges beyond 80yd., the penetration power of the arrows decreases in such a way, that it becomes much less likely to penetrate contemporary heavy armour (p. 50). Lightly armoured or completely unarmoured targets are another matter of course, but that book focuses on battles from the Hunded Years War, where heavy armour (heavier and more advanced than in Middle-earth) was widely used. Up to approximately 50 yd. the arrow retains about the velocity with which it is loosed from the bow (p. 50) and thus its penetrative power. Due to these facts (and contemporary sources), the author concludes that in the 14th and 15th century, the decisive "killing range" in pitched battles such as Crécy or Agincourt was at about 50yd. or closer. When we take into account that the Longbow was best in a prepared position with stakes, caltrops etc. to protect him from cavalry charges, the author deduces that the archers would even lose their arrows on such hindered enemies from point blank ranges of 10 or even 5yd. (p. 48/49). At this distance, any hit would be crippling at best and often already killing - even against heavy armour.

In summary, we might note that the "long range" as specified in the OP was in history probably the upper limit of the extremely destructive "death zone" in a pitched battle against heavily armoured enemies.
In a situation where the target was not expected to move (or at least predictably) and/or was lightly armoured at best, effective (including deadly) shots at much longer ranges are to be expected from skilled archers.

Cheers
Tolwen
Last edited by Tolwen on Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rich H
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Rich H » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:42 pm

I changed the weapon ranges slightly in my campaign as follows:

Weapon....................Short Range....................Medium Range.....................Long Range
Spear.........................5 + Body.........................10 + Body.........................20 + Body
Bow.......................10 + (Body x 2)..................20 + (Body x 2)...................30 + (Body x 2)
Great Bow...............20 + (Body x 3)..................30 + (Body x 3)...................40 + (Body x 3)

Not the extreme ranges of 100+ yards but expanded for ranges to become more significant in play.
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TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885

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Tolwen
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Tolwen » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:50 am

Addendum to my previous post:
The author of said book also makes comparisons of draw-weights. This is especially useful when comparing with modern recreational archery. Here he points out that most modern recreational archers shoot with bows of a draw-weight around 30 to 40lb., and hunting bows (e.g. for the above-mentioned deer) around 70lb.
The historical Longbowmen used much greater average draw-weights however - with the corresponding increase in missile velocity, penetration power and range. This is backed up by archaeological findings (especially the famous Mary Rose). He estimates that at the beginning of the Hundred Years War, the draw-weights were around 90 to 120 lbs. (and most on the smaller end of this scale) while later on (e.g. during the Mary Rose-times - which are documented) this increased to 100 to 140 lbs.

Cheers
Tolwen

P.S.: He mentions that the current record for draw-weight stands at 170 lb. and is likely to be broken soon.
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Dunheved
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Dunheved » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:03 pm

Like some of us I've used Longbows, and I would say that a longer effective range is more realistic. However, it is very hard to prescribe a table for this. I like general descriptions to aid the story and game flow.
Stormcrow and Corvo give great categories & descriptions to use.
I would suggest that the more skilful an archer is the longer range they are able to have a good chance of hitting a target. How do people feel about increasing effective range with the Weapon Skill level as well as having that extra success dice? (The archer would have to declare that they were training hard during the Fellowship/End of year phase.)

As a related idea, I plan a bonus for any of my archers after they assist a group of Wild Elves caught by spiders. If the group rescue some of these elves they get a choice of training bonusses - one of which is to have weapon upgrades (elf bowstrings: gives an additional volley at long range OR +1 damage). (Others are Elf hunting arrows: add to Injury rating) (Elf -Trained: +1 to hit).

Glorelendil
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Glorelendil » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:49 pm

Dunheved wrote: I would suggest that the more skilful an archer is the longer range they are able to have a good chance of hitting a target. How do people feel about increasing effective range with the Weapon Skill level as well as having that extra success dice?
If I were going to change TOR rules, which in this case I probably won't, I would prefer to leave the range the same, or even make it slightly shorter, but call it "range increment". Each increment past 1 you lose a skill die. Your max range is range increment * skill (I.e., even on a Gandalf you won't hit a target beyond that range.)

If you catch enemies at really long range, a highly skilled archer could get multiple opening volleys, at increasing effectiveness, as the opponents gets closer. (If they're foolish enough to do so.)
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Corvo
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Corvo » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:46 pm

As a general (and semi-serious) consideration, I think that precise, misurable arrow ranges are not so meaningful if not linked to precise, misurable movement ranges and terrain rules.... something that we happily wing because too much of an hassle.

Player: "how far is the easterling archer?"
LM: "40 meters"
PL: "I'll charge him"
LM: "he let loose 3 arrows while you charge him..."
Pl: "3?? I'm running downhill! Would he loose 4 arrows in 40m if I was in plain? He's some goddam Legolas?"
LM: "ehm... well... there are... raspberries. Lots of rasperries bushes that hamper your charge"

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